[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

I don't think making a pair and doing these WV cases is faster than inserting a pair naturally and doing something like a sune. Personally, my slowest OCLL is slightly over 1 sec with the rest being easily sub 1. WV doesn't really make much sense to me.
 
a small kitten said:
I don't think making a pair and doing these WV cases is faster than inserting a pair naturally and doing something like a sune. Personally, my slowest OCLL is slightly over 1 sec with the rest being easily sub 1. WV doesn't really make much sense to me.
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It's like learning a few ZBLL's for when the case comes up. If you see that the WV case comes up, you can do that and skip OLL. You're not really trying to use it.
 
nickvu2 said:
Stachuk1992 said:
Don't purposely make the pair.
Like Edward said, it's just "ooh, I have a pair done without trying, and the WV case is nice."
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Would you give the same advice about phasing...only phase if there happens to already be a pair? Is ZZLL really that useful then either?
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Phasing is only really useful if you plan on learning ZZLL. ZZLL is distinct from ZBLL. ZBLL is where you have a LL situation where all the edges are oriented (cross on top) and you use one of 493 algorithms to solve the entire LL. ZZLL is a part of ZBLL where all the edges are permuted opposite to each other, but not necessarily in the right order around the cube. Phasing is what accomplishes this- it's basically inserting the F2L pair in a way that permutes opposite LL edges. Considering ZZLL requires 163 (?) algs, I don't think anyone learns it just for when a pair is already made.

Edit: I should add that I use ZZ-VH, so I don't have any practical experience with ZZLL.

Edward: No, I haven't learnt any WV, because I feel like the only times it's really useful are times where partial corner control will suffice.
 
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nickvu2 said:
Stachuk1992 said:
Don't purposely make the pair.
Like Edward said, it's just "ooh, I have a pair done without trying, and the WV case is nice."
Click to expand...

Would you give the same advice about phasing...only phase if there happens to already be a pair? Is ZZLL really that useful then either?
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Sorry, I've almost no experience with phasing, so I can't really help you here with any justice.

From what I've played with, though, if you know ZZLL, but not full ZBLL, then I would probably phase, if nothing else than for practice.

I really must urge more ZZers to CLS. Stuff's well-documented now, and if you only want to learn a few algs, if you learn ~30, you can learn I+Im, then a few more easy-to-recognize cases. :)
 
Agreed. Although I don't use ZZ as my main method, I honestly can't see a good reason not to learn EJF2L (I,Im).
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Yes. Move saving is very good. I will probably learn this week if I have time.

We should definitely get more ZZers to do OH too.

DEMAND MORE ZZOHers.
 
I'm glad to see that more people are hitching onto the ZZ+CLS bandwagon. I've stopped learning new CLS for the time being, because I really needed to fix my terrible PLLs and train my F2L look-ahead, and it drives me crazy how often I run into a luckily placed edge that I don't know the CLS alg for. The potential is excellent.

I hope I'm able to recognize full CLS quickly. Lucas obviously does well enough with it, so I'm hopeful. I'd be sad if it ends up being a case like ZBLL, where most-to-all of the advantage is wasted on recognition.
 
Matt S said:
I'm glad to see that more people are hitching onto the ZZ+CLS bandwagon. I've stopped learning new CLS for the time being, because I really needed to fix my terrible PLLs and train my F2L look-ahead, and it drives me crazy how often I run into a luckily placed edge that I don't know the CLS alg for. The potential is excellent.

I hope I'm able to recognize full CLS quickly. Lucas obviously does well enough with it, so I'm hopeful. I'd be sad if it ends up being a case like ZBLL, where most-to-all of the advantage is wasted on recognition.
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Recog for 0-2 corners (of the 3 non-URF) being mis-oriented is fine - it's just 3 corners that I have trouble with. :/
 
I might have asked this before, but I don't remember getting a real answer. Why is CLS > WV?
 
Anonymous said:
I might have asked this before, but I don't remember getting a real answer. Why is CLS > WV?
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WV cases take more to set up. (you have to make a pair, not just throw an edge into a slot. This is the main thing
WV cases feel awkward, and often take more than 2-gen.
The triggers in WV are far less comfortable, but that simply complements the above statement.
CLS algs essentially just feel like slightly-long F2L algs, while WV just feels like a buncha RUL moves.

On WV's side, of course you have less algs, at 27 with mirroring, 54 without, compared to ~65 or 105, respectively.
 
Wow, CPLS looks super nice. I'm sure it's just me being stupid, but how do I know which cases are which in there? Like if I'm looking at my cube, how do I know which case I have?
 
Chapuunka said:
Wow, CPLS looks super nice. I'm sure it's just me being stupid, but how do I know which cases are which in there? Like if I'm looking at my cube, how do I know which case I have?
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Sorry, I can't respond right now, as when I give a full answer, I want to make it REALLY FULL.
Please wait until tomorrow - all the magic of this will be revealed first in a wiki, then in a thread.

I plan to be as detailed as possible, providing everything needed. :)
 
Stachuk1992 said:
Chapuunka said:
Wow, CPLS looks super nice. I'm sure it's just me being stupid, but how do I know which cases are which in there? Like if I'm looking at my cube, how do I know which case I have?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I can't respond right now, as when I give a full answer, I want to make it REALLY FULL.
Please wait until tomorrow - all the magic of this will be revealed first in a wiki, then in a thread.

I plan to be as detailed as possible, providing everything needed. :)
Click to expand...

Sounds good. I'm glad to see someone putting forth this much effort to add to the community. I'm far too lazy myself...
 
I figure only ZZ users will care about this, so I'm posting here instead of starting a new thread.

Basically, I've had trouble performing phasing consistently and efficiently considering many F2L cases are not easily transformed into a bar. (Similar to the problem with WV.) Exploring how to handle this, I prepared the following document. It's a list of algs for each F2L case along with an explanation of why advanced phasing may be more effective than standard, intuitive phasing.

phasing algs v2.pdf

I'd love feedback on this. Is advanced phasing even useful? Am I getting any of my fact assumptions wrong? Is there an easier solution I've totally overlooked?
 
I used Cube Explorer and tested several for each case to find the best ones. Maybe we have different cubing styles; but I found most of them to be fast. Even though some may be long, they are all shorter than the intuitive move count. There are certain cases where you save 7 moves by knowing an alg. But I probably won't bother learning algs that only save 1 move over intuitive phasing.
 
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