[Help Thread] Colour Neutrality Discussion

[Cerberus]

I use colourneutral on 2x2 too, there it get's the biggest advantage I think, you can realy lucky cases with that.
On 3x3 I think when you are able to do it and don't loose time with it, just make avg of 12 which each side being cross colour and compare, you can switch to a single colour to be main cross, so that you can find f2l pieces faster, that is what I think about it.
And if you get a realy nice start on another side, like 2 moves cross + f2l pair ready, you can feel fine and go for that side.

 

[Dene]

We all know my opinions on how OP colour neutrality is. I'm going to assume that I'm one of the "faster" cubers who are colour neutral, and I say stick with it. There is NO disadvantage, so why not? I think some people argue that there is a disadvantage in that, if you are used to one colour, you can recognise cases "faster", but I see no evidence for such a claim. When some colour neutral people get to be sub14, then we'll see.

 

[ExoCorsair]

Otherwise, stick with one color, or you would end up wasting time deciding colors during inspection than looking ahead further.

At a certain point, you can figure out how to build the cross in 5 seconds (or less) of inspection; the rest of the time can be used to determine which color.

 

[Hadley4000]

I do not use color neutral for 3x3, but I do use it for all other puzzles. (2x2, big cubes, pyraminx)
It is not that useful unless you see a really obvious 1 move cross, 2 move extended cross, or something really nice. I would do that if such a really easy case comes up.
Otherwise, stick with one color, or you would end up wasting time deciding colors during inspection than looking ahead further.

Funny, because the pyraminx is the only puzzle I'm NOT color neutral on (Always start with the blue side.)

I also am not color neutral when doing hour marathons or the real man's average.

When I first started I was. It's actually a funny story on how I became neutral. When I used layer-by-layer, to prove to my friends I really could, I would ask them which side they wanted me to start on.

It usually takes me about 7 seconds to figure out the whole cross during inspection.

 

[brunson]

I'm still working on getting my averages down to sub 40, so I'm not pretending to be an expert cuber or anything, but I am a mathematician by schooling and I am completely color neutral. So, at the risk of getting beaten down, here's my take on the matter.

First of all, I'm not *that* great at the cross, I regularly go over five seconds, but I'm working on it, it's currently one of my areas of focus for improving my times. I have always been color neutral, it seemed to me as a beginner that it would be a tremendous disadvantage to always restrict myself to the same color for the cross, but at that time I wasn't even aware of the 8 move upper bound on the step. I realize now that the advantage is not as extreme as I naively thought back then, but I dismissing color neutrality based on summarizing Lars' analysis as a simply 1 or two move advantage is a bit naive in itself.

Like I said, I'm not great at the cross, I have trouble planning beyond four moves and beyond five becomes very ad hoc. However, you can clearly see from Lars' results that being color neutral I have an 85% chance of getting a 5 move or shorter cross. Single color solvers only have a 30% chance of getting a cross that short. I probably spend an extra 2-4 seconds inspecting all sides of the cube looking for my best color, but I'm going to find an easy one almost three times as often as if I restricted myself to white. And, after I find one, I can plan my cross in another 3-5 seconds leaving me time to (theoretically) look for an extended cross (I'm not really good enough to plan an extended cross, but someone better than I am could certainly make use of the time).

If, on the other hand, I don't find a 5 move cross, I'm still 99.97% likely to find a 6 move cross, which would be paltry for a better solver, but should be within my comfort zone in the next month or two. Additionally, look in the other direction, I'm five times more likely than a single color solver to find a 4 move or shorter cross and twice as likely to find a 2 or 1 move cross. Furthermore, if I happen to luck into a 2 or 1 or even 0 move cross, it's unimportant to me that it isn't "my color", I'm at no disadvantage solving that color than I would be with white (or green, or whatever).

There is the argument that I may have to work harder to remember what color I'm solving on F2L, and I *do* suffer from periodic cube amnesia and have to look at my top center to remind me what's on bottom, but that's getting less and less frequent as I get better at looking ahead. And I can honestly say that LL is in no way hindered by color neutrality, I don't feel I suffer in the least at recognizing the OLL's and PLL's.

So, I was mainly spurred me to write this by a comment that color neutrality "only gives you a 1 or 2 move advantage" on average. I think the statement is misleading for two reasons. It's only a one or two move advantage, but it's an advantage a whole lot of the time. And, secondly, until I get a lot better and I'm able to do my inspections in 3 seconds like I've seen "real" cubers do in video, that 2 move advantage is huge to me.

I'll admit, it may have taken me longer to get to where I am currently and I might actually be better at my longer crosses if I had gone single color, but I think in the long run it will be an aid to getting sub-20 which is where I'd like to be this time next year.

Just my thoughts as an intermediate solver, I'm happy to entertain comments and disagreements.

 

[Lucas Garron]

If, on the other hand, I don't find a 5 move cross, I'm still 99.97% likely to find a 6 move cross, which would be paltry for a better solver, but should be within my comfort zone in the next month or two.

WOW!
Would you mind taking an average of 12 cross solving lengths to show us that you can stay under 7 so amazingly often?

I'm don't care so much about the chances for single-cross-cross (or even opp-color) solvers, but most good cubers really don't go for specifically the shortest cross, but the easiest (or xcross or something else good)...

 

[Dene]

Ah yes, I was going to get around to taking a closer look at the numbers found by Mr. Vandenbergh, but I've been too lazy, so thanks for this! I think it is an extremely valid point, in that there is almost 3 times more chance of having a 5 of less move cross. People may argue that 1 or 2 moves isn't much, but I think that looking at it in a linear fashion wouldn't suffice, in that, a 6 move cross isn't 1 move worse than a 5 move cross. I think it is almost certainly more exponential, in that a 6 move cross is considerably harder to see ahead and to organise suitably than a 5 move cross, or whatever. Time spent looking for, and organising a 6 move cross is defiitely not equivalent to "1 move more" than a 5 move cross. (the numbers I used are just arbitrary as a suitable example in this case. 4 and 5 move crosses would have similar differences as well as 3 and 4 move etc etc, although, as I said, in a more exponential relationship, the difference would be less significant as the numbers decreased.)

EDIT: I should add, with Lucas' comment, that what hasn't been analysed is the finger-friendliness of crosses. I would be extremely interested to know what the chances are of getting a finger friendly cross in colour-neutrality compared to single or opposite cross colour is.

 

[ROOT]

i think its a good idea, for some crosses if one seems easier and faster to build than another. it would also most likely help a heck of alot with centers on bigcubes. im also trying to become slightly more color neutral for the megaminx (the top 6 layers not the cross or anything)

 

[brunson]

If, on the other hand, I don't find a 5 move cross, I'm still 99.97% likely to find a 6 move cross, which would be paltry for a better solver, but should be within my comfort zone in the next month or two.

WOW!
Would you mind taking an average of 12 cross solving lengths to show us that you can stay under 7 so amazingly often?

I'm don't care so much about the chances for single-cross-cross (or even opp-color) solvers, but most good cubers really don't go for specifically the shortest cross, but the easiest (or xcross or something else good)...

I would absolutely be happy to. I'm surprised that a cuber of your caliber and notoriety thinks it's that difficult. I promise I am not being sarcastic with that remark, when I have my initial next to Macky's in an expert method *maybe* I'll cop an attitude, but I mean that with absolute sincerity.

There was a thread on the yahoo group where someone commented that counting moves on the cross was not the metric that equated to speed and I opted not to respond. Maybe it it doesn't directly equate to speed, but it's a metric and it's easy to count turns, so it's something, and I play with it a lot.

I'll have CALCubeTimer generate 12 scrambles and I'll perform them white on top and green in front and I'll tell you what color I solved and how many face turns it took me and I'll be sure the keep within 15 seconds of inspection. A better cuber could probably solve them in fewer moves than I'll be able to, but I'll be honest about what I choose and how many turns.

I'm really not good enough to be able to recreate my cross in moves and still remain in the 15 seconds inspection, so the color I chose will have to suffice. I'll try to do it tonight after I get my home responsibilities taken care of.

 

[sam]

I would have to say that most of my crosses are 7 or less moves...
My color neutrality really pays off when looking for cross and X-Cross.
Recently, my average has decreased to the 17-19 range while still using color neutrality. I do not think it is bogus and can def. be very good.
Look at how Rowe uses it.
And Jon. And Jason Thong
And Dene.

RJJSD = Sub-20 Color neutrality pact!

 

[MiloD]

can i join when i get sub 20?

 

[brunson]

Here you go:

1: U' B' D F' L R D U L' R2 D' U F' L' B' D2 U2 B' F2 D' U' R F2 L' R'
Yellow: 5
2: B' L U' R2 D2 B' L2 F' U R2 U' B2 L2 F2 D' U L' R' B U' L2 R B2 F U
Red: 5
3: D' L2 D' U' R' D U2 R B2 F D U2 F U2 L2 D B D2 B2 F' D' U B2 F' L'
White: 5, I think I may have gone over the inspection time on this one,
I got hung up on yellow and then switched to white.
4: L R B' F2 R F U' R2 B2 D2 U L R B2 F2 L2 U' F U B' F D' R2 D' U'
Red: 5
5: D' U2 L U B2 R U' B' R' D2 B' U2 F D2 U L2 B2 L' D2 L' R' D L2 U2 L2
Green: 7, do you count the D face adjustment to line up centers? I did.
6: L R B R B2 L' R2 U B F R2 B2 F' D2 L' R' B' F2 D U L2 B F L D2
Yellow: 6, there may have been a shorter one, but that one was super easy.
7: D2 U R U B2 D' L D2 U2 R' F L D L2 R2 F' L R2 B' U F D2 U2 L B2
Blue: 5, now I'm getting tired and bored and just taking sure things.
8: D2 L F L' R2 B D2 U2 B U2 R' B R' B D' U' L B' F2 L2 R' B U2 B2 R
Blue: 6, lucked into an extended cross on B/O/Y corner.
9: U' F' D' L F2 R D' B F' L F' R2 F' D B D' U2 R' F' R2 B2 F2 U2 B2 F2
White: 6
A: D' U L F2 D2 F' U B' L' R2 D' B' F2 L R' B2 L' R B' F2 L2 R D' L2 D'
Blue: 5
B: L' R U' F L2 R2 B2 D U2 L R2 B' F' D' U' R B' F U2 B F' L2 R D2 L2
Green: 6, decided too soon and thought I could do better, but the next
time I did Red in 6
C: U2 B' D' F2 D B F D' U2 L2 R2 D2 U2 B' L R' D2 U2 R B' L' R B2 F2 R'
Red: 5, tried again, White: 5

I think someone better than me could have done several of them in fewer moves.

 

[Lucas Garron]

1. Yellow: 6 (5 STM)
2. Yellow xcross: 8
3. White: 7 (6 ATM)
4. Yellow: 7
5. White: 7
6. Yellow: 6
7. White xcross: 6
8. White: 7 (6 ATM)
9. White: 7 (Should really have been 6)
A. White: 5 (4 ATM)
B. Yellow: 8 (10 moves more for a pseudo-slot making double xcross)
C. White: 5 (4 ATM)

Hmm, that's actually lower than what I thought I used.
I was only half-sarcastic in my post.
Of course you wouldn't hit 99.97% in practice, but your results are pretty impressive and show that it's not too impossible to stay below 7. I can see how they're often actually pretty simple crosses (hey, maybe color neutrality is good!), but I have a hard time with relationships on other crosses... I'm staying with opp-color for now.

 

[Dene]

Yea, we've got Lucas cornered now guys, let's push our advantage!

COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY! COLOUR NEUTRALITY!

 

[masterofthebass]

Dene... until someone gets the WR with a cross color other than white, don't talk to me! I also bet Lucas' f2l is much better than yours, which is the whole point to color neutrality. As I've said before, the <2s that it takes for the cross doesn't mean anything when your f2l is what is affected.

 

[Erik]

Oh he can, cause the WR is set on BLUE Nakajima 11.33 avg...

 

[Dene]

Oh goody, thanks Erik . Dan, I will set the world record, just to prove a point now . The future of cubing has to be colour neutrality. It's only a matter of time.

 

[Johannes91]

5: D' U2 L U B2 R U' B' R' D2 B' U2 F D2 U L2 B2 L' D2 L' R' D L2 U2 L2
Green: 7, do you count the D face adjustment to line up centers? I did.

Yes, it should be counted. Each cross can be done in 6 moves on that scramble, btw.

6: L R B R B2 L' R2 U B F R2 B2 F' D2 L' R' B' F2 D U L2 B F L D2
Yellow: 6, there may have been a shorter one, but that one was super easy.

Nope, 6 is optimal.

B: L' R U' F L2 R2 B2 D U2 L R2 B' F' D' U' R B' F U2 B F' L2 R D2 L2
Green: 6, decided too soon and thought I could do better, but the next time I did Red in 6

There are two that can be done in 5 moves.

C: U2 B' D' F2 D B F D' U2 L2 R2 D2 U2 B' L R' D2 U2 R B' L' R B2 F2 R'
Red: 5, tried again, White: 5

F2 R' L2 D'

 

[Johannes91]

EDIT: I should add, with Lucas' comment, that what hasn't been analysed is the finger-friendliness of crosses. I would be extremely interested to know what the chances are of getting a finger friendly cross in colour-neutrality compared to single or opposite cross colour is.

I would be extremely interested to see a solid definition of finger-friendliness of move sequences. Until someone comes up with one, using the number of moves is good enough for me and I'm willing to believe that shorter move sequences are, on average, better than longer ones.

 

[brunson]

Lucas, thanks for the alternate view. You can still average three cubes in the time it takes me to solve one. This hasn't proved that color neutrality is faster, just that it can be shorter, even for an intermediate solver. I'm sure all your crosses were sub 3 seconds, most of mine were probably around 7.

Johannes, thanks for your input, I expected someone better than me could find shorter crosses. I was really hoping to post a 4, just to support the cause. It's telling that it was there in the last scramble and I just couldn't find it, even with two tries.