[Help Thread] Colour Neutrality Discussion

[joey]

I think he meant, if he did an avg100 and by chance only did white cross ?_?

 

[ukrcuber]

They're east-bloc style smileys. I'm guessing he's Ukrainian. I have a couple of Russian friends doing the same thing.

correct, i'm ukrainian

 

[Faz]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing that colour neutrality can possibly improve is the first step. I see much more merit in partial blockbuilding colour neutrality, but not Fridrich colour neutrality.

Well, in my opinion, it is a lot easier to look ahead into the solve with colour neutral solves. Personally, I usually see the first pair in my solves, and sometimes 2.

I just took an average of 5 with colour neutral, and white cross to compare

6.93[1, pll skip], 9.97[1], 8.06[1], 8.24[1], 8.59[1] = 8.30

Comments: Really good average for me, and saw the first pair in every solve. The 1st and 3rd solves were 3 move insert first pairs

White cross:

9.89[1], 9.76[0], 10.94[0], 9.84[x cross], 7.86[0] = 9.83

Comments: Not being able to immediately continue after the cross sometimes is a bit annoying. On the last solve, my f2l was really smooth, with barely any rotations.

 

[ElderKingpin]

there are people working at CN, and for a while, you get real slow (For example Sinpei Araki) has been working at CN and he has been getting really bad times ._.

But hes not giving up :3. The fact is, there is no move difference after you solve the cross when it comes to it. If you solve on white, it is the same amount of average moves on white as it is on yellow.

 

[Faz]

Not sure, but I heard Ibrahim switched to colour neutral.

 

[ukrcuber]

Felix, how long have you been cubing?

 

[csharsha]

If you want to be colour neutral (because you don't necessarily have to be), then the best time would be as soon as possible. Of course you wouldn't want to confuse yourself with it when you first learn how to solve the cube, moreover you would never have heard of it or maybe thought about it, but once maybe you break 1 min, it means you could start trying.
I say this because once you are sub-20 or sub-30 even, when you attempt to start colour neutrality, your times with other cross colours would be rather slow, and hence you would either stop it or get frustrated and take an even longer time to get used to it.
By starting earlier, I would think you will take lesser time to get your times on par.

 

[jms_gears1]

if Feliks does an average of 100 and only solves the white cross thats still color neutral.

Erm, no.

yes.... reread the whole thing...

I think he meant, if he did an avg100 and by chance only did white cross ?_?

i thought that was implied.

Basically what im saying, is if a person does 100 solves and this person does them all with the same color (i.e. white cross) as long as they have the ability to solve it with any color cross then that person is color nuetral..

 

[RyanO]

He may be color neutral, but by doing 100 fixed crosses he would be doing a non color neutral average. Your argument is silly. It doesn't matter if someone has the ability to solve cross with any color if they choose not to. I think what most of us are concerned with is the benefits of color neutrality, which would be nullified by doing 100 fixed crosses.

 

[Kirjava]

I think what most of us are concerned with is the benefits of color neutrality, which would be nullified by doing 100 fixed crosses.

Not if the white cross would be the best cross everytime.

 

[jms_gears1]

Or maybe it's just because hes good at 3x3. A lot of people are color neutral it doesn't mean that they instantly turn into Feliks

he is without color neutral really fast but with color neutral he is one second or so faster I think

I can assure you that Feliks isn't anything close to 1 second faster on average because of color neutrality. Feliks is very fast and he happens to be color neutral. It's just a coincidence. There are so many more tangible things to concentrate on that can actually help your times.

you guys dont understand what color neutrality is do you?

if Feliks does an average of 100 and only solves the white cross thats still color neutral.

If your CN you only do CN solves if your not then you dont.

when you say someone is CN your saying they have the ability to solve it, in a time consistent with your average not solving it with a different color every time.

He may be color neutral, but by doing 100 fixed crosses he would be doing a non color neutral average. Your argument is silly. It doesn't matter if someone has the ability to solve cross with any color if they choose not to. I think what most of us are concerned with is the benefits of color neutrality, which would be nullified by doing 100 fixed crosses.

not necessarily, if the best situation happens to be on the white cross one hundred times its still color nuetral. Thats all im saying. It sounded like you were saying if he uses the same color for cross everytime then its not a CN solve, whereas it might be because it might have been the best choice.

 

[RyanO]

not necessarily, if the best situation happens to be on the white cross one hundred times its still color nuetral. Thats all im saying. It sounded like you were saying if he uses the same color for cross everytime then its not a CN solve, whereas it might be because it might have been the best choice.

The chance of white being the best cross 100/100 times is so low it's not worth mentioning. If a color neutral cuber solves 100 solves with cross on white, that is not a color neutral average. Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

 

[jms_gears1]

not necessarily, if the best situation happens to be on the white cross one hundred times its still color nuetral. Thats all im saying. It sounded like you were saying if he uses the same color for cross everytime then its not a CN solve, whereas it might be because it might have been the best choice.

The chance of white being the best cross 100/100 times is so low it's not worth mentioning. If a color neutral cuber solves 100 solves with cross on white, that is not a color neutral average. Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

The chance of white being the best is completely irrelevant as it is just a hypothetical situation. What im trying to get across to you is that you either have color neutral solves or you dont. Faz for example only ever has color neutral averages/solves regardless of wether or not he chooses the best cross or the same cross over and over.

 

[Kirjava]

Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

Please prove to me that colour neutral solving gives an overall advantage over non colour neutral solving.

PROTIP; You can't.

 

[RyanO]

Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

Please prove to me that colour neutral solving gives an overall advantage over non colour neutral solving.

PROTIP; You can't.

I wasn't trying to prove that being color neutral gives a significant advantage over non color neutral solving. If you read my posts it's pretty clear that I agree with you.

 

[brunson]

Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

Please prove to me that colour neutral solving gives an overall advantage over non colour neutral solving.

PROTIP; You can't.

I lost my link to the analysis that was done, but it showed that CN has a slightly more than one move advantage over single cross. If you're going to be pedantic, that's a definitive advantage. Not a big one, but a statistical advantage none the less.

The real advantage comes from almost never being stuck with a crappy cross, it's opportunistic. If there is a fantastic three move cross on blue, if you only solve white and the white cross is 7 moves, you miss out.

Did you start with Roux or were you ever a Fridrich solver? You're CN on Roux, aren't you? Edit: These are just academic questions from my own curiosity, I'm not trying to muddy the discussion as I don't think CN in block building is equivalent to cross solving.

 

[jms_gears1]

Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

Please prove to me that colour neutral solving gives an overall advantage over non colour neutral solving.

PROTIP; You can't.

I lost my link to the analysis that was done, but it showed that CN has a slightly more than one move advantage over single cross. If you're going to be pedantic, that's a definitive advantage. Not a big one, but a statistical advantage none the less.

The real advantage comes from almost never being stuck with a crappy cross, it's opportunistic. If there is a fantastic three move cross on blue, if you only solve white and the white cross is 7 moves, you miss out.

Did you start with Roux or were you ever a Fridrich solver? You're CN on Roux, aren't you?

brunsons link perhaps?

either way the point of this thread was advising the author. And my suggestion is to just stay non CN because switching will do nothing but hurt your times.

 

[Kirjava]

Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

Please prove to me that colour neutral solving gives an overall advantage over non colour neutral solving.

PROTIP; You can't.

I wasn't trying to prove that being color neutral gives a significant advantage over non color neutral solving. If you read my posts it's pretty clear that I agree with you.

Saying 'solving white all the time gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral' seems to imply that being CN is an advantage. Did I misinterpret?

Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

Please prove to me that colour neutral solving gives an overall advantage over non colour neutral solving.

PROTIP; You can't.

I lost my link to the analysis that was done, but it showed that CN has a slightly more than one move advantage over single cross. If you're going to be pedantic, that's a definitive advantage. Not a big one, but a statistical advantage none the less.

Sure, it may give lower move counts - but this doesn't prove it gives an overall advantage. Maybe the recognition gained by nonCN outweighs the 1-2 moves you save. There are more factors involved here than simply movecount, many of these are things that can't be measured.

The real advantage comes from almost never being stuck with a crappy cross, it's opportunistic. If there is a fantastic three move cross on blue, if you only solve white and the white cross is 7 moves, you miss out.

This doesn't prove anything.

I should point out that I don't disagree or agree that one technique is better than the other, I simply don't know - and I don't think it can be proven one way or the other.

Did you start with Roux or were you ever a Fridrich solver? You're CN on Roux, aren't you? Edit: These are just academic questions from my own curiosity, I'm not trying to muddy the discussion as I don't think CN in block building is equivalent to cross solving.

I started out with Petrus, actually (fully CN). I'm not CN with Roux, only neutral with regard to opposite colours - I believe this is the perfect middle ground. There are four blocks I can use for the first block and after selecting that I have another two blocks to choose from for the second. Being opposite neutral, it feels like I'm solving the same coloured block every time, even though the colours are different. It's like the Roux version of dual colour solving.

I've never really used CFOP. I'm faster with LBL than F2L, and I use CLL/ELL on the last layer.

 

[Kian]

Sure, some of those solves white will be the best cross color, but this gives no advantage over someone who isn't color neutral.

Please prove to me that colour neutral solving gives an overall advantage over non colour neutral solving.

PROTIP; You can't.

I lost my link to the analysis that was done, but it showed that CN has a slightly more than one move advantage over single cross. If you're going to be pedantic, that's a definitive advantage. Not a big one, but a statistical advantage none the less.

That's literally the same logic as saying that Heise is faster in speedsolving because it reduces move count. Move count! = faster. You complete discount recognition.

Tthere is absolutely no way you can quantify which method is faster, so claiming either one is faster is silly.

 

[teller]

There seems to be this notion that CN means your F2L recognition is harmed, and that this maybe cancels out the gains of an easy cross. This might be true if you're trying to switch to CN for the first few months--I am definitely slower on certain colors at the moment. But I don't see why this has to be a permanent disability. It surely isn't for Feliks or Rowe...they don't suffer some "cost" that you imagine. It's a pure net gain for them. Why is this controversial?