[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

CubingGenius said:
I am still having major issues with my first pair/block's efficiency.

Here are a few example solves:

1. F U F' R' L' F B2 L U2 L2 D' F2 D' B2 R2 B2 U' D' F2 L
z' F U D' L R' F - EOline
R U R2 U' R U L2 U2 R U R - What I did in the solve
U R' U R' U2 L' U' L2 - What I did with unlimited time

2. B2 U2 D2 L' U D L B' R' L F R2 L2 U2 B U2 D2 B L2 F L2
x z' U' R u' U F L D - EOline
R' U2 R U2 R U2 L U L - What I did in the solve
R U' R U2 R2 L U L2 - What I did with unlimited time

3. D' F' L2 U2 L2 D2 U2 F D2 B' R2 F2 R' F2 R F L D' F D2 R'
z2 F' U D' R F R D' - EOline
U R U2 L' U' L' - What I did in the solve
U R U2 L' U' L' - What I did with unlimited time

I think the inefficient first 2x2x1 block could have something to do with poor lookahead - if I could guess, even though my tps isn't that good (around 5-6) whilst turning, I wouldn't be surprised if I am pausing for at least half the solve. I am consistently appearing to have a large pause after EOline, even if I turn at something like 1 tps.

Does anyone have any idea how to fix this problem?
Click to expand...
Drill a bunch of EOline -> 2x2x1 block with optimal solver, untimed, speedsolve, etc.
practicing eoline bld will also help
 
Last edited:
pinser said:
Drill a bunch of EOline -> 2x2x1 block with optimal solver, untimed, speedsolve, etc.
practicing eoline bld will also help
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I can use this for most of those things, right?

I averaged about 21.5 seconds before becoming colour neutral, and now I average under 24 seconds.
 
What is the average move count for ZZ with COLL/EPLL?

What is the fastest official and unofficial avg5 using ZZ?

Is there a timer that gives an EOline for a specific number of misoriented edges?
 
CubingGenius said:
What is the average move count for ZZ with COLL/EPLL?

What is the fastest official and unofficial avg5 using ZZ?

Is there a timer that gives an EOline for a specific number of misoriented edges?
Click to expand...
My move count with COLL+EPLL is mid to high 50s.

For the timer, try this one.
http://stachudotnet.github.io/zzTimer/
Under scramble type, choose n-flip and pick the number of bad edges you want.
 
CubingGenius said:
Do you have tips for EOline + ZZF2L in around 30 moves on average?
Click to expand...
I do a lot of linear FMC type solves. So I take a scrambled cube and turn really slowly and count how many turns I use. Having to count forces me to take it slow and make one turn at a time. Use the extra time to look for shorter ways to do things, and don't be afraid to try things you wouldn't normally try in a speed solve. I usually stop after F2L as it's just algs after that.
 
AlphaSheep said:
I do a lot of linear FMC type solves. So I take a scrambled cube and turn really slowly and count how many turns I use. Having to count forces me to take it slow and make one turn at a time. Use the extra time to look for shorter ways to do things, and don't be afraid to try things you wouldn't normally try in a speed solve. I usually stop after F2L as it's just algs after that.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I just tried this on a scramble and completed F2L in 30 moves.
 
AlphaSheep said:
I do a lot of linear FMC type solves. So I take a scrambled cube and turn really slowly and count how many turns I use. Having to count forces me to take it slow and make one turn at a time. Use the extra time to look for shorter ways to do things, and don't be afraid to try things you wouldn't normally try in a speed solve. I usually stop after F2L as it's just algs after that.
Click to expand...

I completely agree with this. ZZ give you so much more freedom than CFOP in the F2L stage. You'd be surprised at how many different ways there are to solve any given case. Doing slow-turning speedsolves really helped me cut down on my movecount (high-40s low 50s, I use COLL+EPLL).
 
Last edited:
I've been looking at last slot methods and have been reading Zbiginew Zborowski's ZB tutorial. I currently use CFOP with intuitive F2L + VHLS, OCLL (remnants of 2Look OLL), and 1Look PLL; ZB goes directly from F2L-1 to LL:EO to ZBLL. So TL;DR,

CFOP + LS method ZB (F2L-1, ZBLS, ZBLL) [TH]
[/TH] [TH][TH]
[TR1][TD]Cross [/TD][TD] N/A [/TD][/TR1]
[TR2][TD]F2L-1 [/TD][TD]F2L-1 [/TD][/TR2]
[TR1][TD]LS method [/TD][TD]ZBLS [TD][/TD][/TD][/TR1][TD][TD]
[TR2][TD]OLL and/or PLL [/TD][TD]ZBLL [/TD][/TR2]

[/td][/td][/th][/th]
[TH][TH][TD][TD] Tables are a hassle to create. Feel free to tell me how I should've made my table.

Zborowski doesn't mention how to get to F2L-1 in his tutorial; does that mean any method with F2L-1 and a last slot method count as ZB?[/td][/td][/th][/th]

EDIT: Use an LS method that orients the edges for this. Some methods only orient corners.
 
Last edited:
vm70 said:
I've been looking at last slot methods and have been reading Zbiginew Zborowski's ZB tutorial. I currently use CFOP with intuitive F2L + VHLS, OCLL (remnants of 2Look OLL), and 1Look PLL; ZB goes directly from F2L-1 to LL:EO to ZBLL. So TL;DR,

CFOP + any LS method ZB (F2L-1, ZBLS, ZBLL) [TH]
[/TH] [TH][TH]
[TR1][TD]Cross [/TD][TD] N/A [/TD][/TR1]
[TR2][TD]F2L-1 [/TD][TD]F2L-1 [/TD][/TR2]
[TR1][TD]LS method [/TD][TD]ZBLS [TD][/TD][/TD][/TR1][TD][TD]
[TR2][TD]OLL and/or PLL [/TD][TD]ZBLL [/TD][/TR2]

[/td][/td][/th][/th]
[TH][TH][TD][TD] Tables are a hassle to create. Feel free to tell me how I should've made my table.

Zborowski doesn't mention how to get to F2L-1 in his tutorial; does that mean any method with F2L-1 and a last slot method count as ZB?[/td][/td][/th][/th]
Click to expand...
Well, elsewhere on his site he uses CFOP pairs (though I'm still slightly skeptical of the movecounts he uses) to calculate the proported 40 move average though I would term anything else as"freeZB" or something like that but you would be fine calling it ZB tbh.
 
@shadowslice e Thanks for answering my question!
shadowslice e said:
Well, elsewhere on his site he uses CFOP pairs (though I'm still slightly skeptical of the movecounts he uses) to calculate the proported 40 move average though I would term anything else as"freeZB" or something like that but you would be fine calling it ZB tbh.
Click to expand...
Has "FreeZB" been invented already? If not, did we just accidentally invent a new way to do ZB?
 
What splits should I aim for for averaging sub 10? 7 seconds for F2L and 3 seconds for LL? I want to try to reach that by the end of the year. It will be a bit hard when I only average around 24 seconds with colour neutrality.
 
I'm only sub 15, but these are my splits for an average of 12. I primarily use COLL/EPLL, though for S/AS, I do OCLL/PLL. I do know some ZBLL, and I think I used one here, though I forget which solve it was. Not on the 2.26, I know for sure.

14.66 - 10.46/4.20
13.52 - 10.47/3.37
15.99 - 11.47/4.52
16.14 - 11.62/4.51
15.56 - 12.26/3.30
13.48 - 9.78/3.70
12.25 - 8.10/4.14
17.92 - 13.61/4.31
11.96 - 8.65/3.31
15.60 - 11.54/4.06
13.24 - 10.97/2.26
12.82 - 8.92/3.89

14.33 - 10.63/3.80 = ~.74% F2L .26% LL

Hope this helps.
I'll do some more solves to get a more accurate percentage later.
 
GenTheThief said:
I'm only sub 15, but these are my splits for an average of 12. I primarily use COLL/EPLL, though for S/AS, I do OCLL/PLL. I do know some ZBLL, and I think I used one here, though I forget which solve it was. Not on the 2.26, I know for sure.

14.66 - 10.46/4.20
13.52 - 10.47/3.37
15.99 - 11.47/4.52
16.14 - 11.62/4.51
15.56 - 12.26/3.30
13.48 - 9.78/3.70
12.25 - 8.10/4.14
17.92 - 13.61/4.31
11.96 - 8.65/3.31
15.60 - 11.54/4.06
13.24 - 10.97/2.26
12.82 - 8.92/3.89

14.33 - 10.63/3.80 = ~.74% F2L .26% LL

Hope this helps.
I'll do some more solves to get a more accurate percentage later.
Click to expand...

Thank you. I use COLL/EPLL and OCLL/PLL the same way you do. I also often use ZBLL for T and U as well.

1. 15.87 F2L, 7.37 LL, 23.24 solve - COLL/EPLL
2. 17.07 F2L, 9.92 LL, 26.99 solve - Wrong COLL/ZBLL
3. 12.39 F2L, 5.92 LL, 18.32 solve - OCLL/EPLL (Sune+EPLL)
4. 12.61 F2L, 8.02 LL, 20.64 solve - Wrong ZBLL/PLL
5. 17.32 F2L, 2.72 LL, 20.05 solve - OCLL (Sune+PLL skip)
15.05 F2L mean, 6.79 LL mean, 21.85 solve mean

68.88% for F2l and 31.08% for LL.

(I see I mess up in LL a lot...)
 
Does anyone have advice on how to improve my inspection speed? It's like about 1 minute at the moment.

This is what I do:
- I count the number of misoriented edges on each axis (less than 20 seconds I think)
- I inspect the four possible EOlines (takes a very long time)

Does anyone have advice how I can practice making it faster? I can only do about 100 solves a day at the most with this.
 
CubingGenius said:
Does anyone have advice on how to improve my inspection speed? It's like about 1 minute at the moment.

This is what I do:
- I count the number of misoriented edges on each axis (less than 20 seconds I think)
- I inspect the four possible EOlines (takes a very long time)

Does anyone have advice how I can practice making it faster? I can only do about 100 solves a day at the most with this.
Click to expand...
Its not necessary to count all of the edges from all sides. When I use y neutrality, I first count edges on my preferred orientation, which is yellow top blue front. Then to work out the affect of a y rotation, I mentally flip each edge on the E slice with a yellow or white sticker, and each edge on the U or D slice without a yellow or white sticker. That way I need to count a maximum of 8 edges on the second face, but it's often less. I also found it easier to do that than to get used to recognising EO from a different orientation.

It's also possible to do something similar with x rotations. An x rotation only flips edges in the M slice with L/R stickers, and edges in the L/R slices without L/R stickers.
 
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