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[Help Thread] ZZ method / EOLine Discussion

Joined
Jan 9, 2018
Messages
6
As I've noticed, my EOLine is pretty bad.

I only do good when the line edges are opposite. With any case other than this, I am likely to get 5-7 secs for EOLine, which is not good. Even then, my solutions involve, at most, 2 regrips, and my fingertricks are poor.

I also want to combine EO and Line so I can influence the line edges, since that's fairly annoying.

Here are some examples:

1: R B2 L' U R D U' F L' B2 R' F2 L' D' F L' D2 U2 F2 R B' R' B2 L2 U (4 edges)

EOLine: x2 D U2 R' F' L' R' D (got lucky on this one)


2: F L B U F2 D F2 D' R' D' U' F B D' F2 R' B2 L U2 L B U' L R F2 (4 edges)

EOLine: x2 U2 D R F R2 D' (lucky again)


3: R2 U D2 R' F U' R L2 B D F L R' F2 U F' D' B F2 D' B2 R' D' R2 U (4 edges)

EOLine: z2 R2 L' F' D2 (lol)


4: R' U' L2 F' U R U D2 B2 R U2 L B' D U' F D2 F' D2 B R2 D' R2 U' F (6 edges)

EOLine: x2 B' U2 L R F' D2 (wait my eolines are efficient in move-count)


5: R' U' L B R' F2 D' U L' B2 U R B F U2 R L B F' D2 U2 L' U B2 L' (6 edges)

EOLine: z2 L B L2 U R F L D (note that i use EO+Line for all of these)

----

So far, most of the cases involve the DF and DB edges being opposite from each other after EO, so they haven't been that bad.

The next scrambles will be csTimer scrambles rather than Ruwix scrambles.

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6: R F2 R2 F2 L2 U F2 U' L2 D' U F U' L' U2 R' D' B2 R (4 edges)

EOLine: z2 U' R D L F' L' R D (edge gathering sucks, but 2 f2l pairs preserved)


7: L' U' B2 L2 F2 U' B2 L2 D2 R2 D F2 L' B2 D R B' L' F L2 (8 edges)

EOLine: x2 B' R F D L2 D' (fairly easy EO, but adjacent line edges)


8: F2 U2 R2 B2 D2 L U2 L' D2 L F' D2 B L' R' F D L2 F2 L' U (8 edges)

EOLine: x2 D' L' B' U L F L R D' (EOLine is bad, but so many F2L pairs preserved and PLL skip the way I did F2L)


9: D2 B2 U' B2 U B2 L2 D' F2 L2 B D2 F' R' U L' D L2 (6 edges)

EOLine: z2 B U2 D' R' L F D R' D' (again, bad EOLine, but crazily easy FB for ZZF2L and slightly harder SB, but N perm for LL)


10: L2 D' B2 U2 R2 U L2 D' B2 L2 U' B' R F U' L F2 R D B2 F2 (8 edges)

EOLine: z2 B U R D F' D2 L' D (what's with these bad eolines and good f2ls and lls?)

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Basically, my main issue is comfort. Most of my solves focus on being optimal rather than finger-friendly, which is a bad habit of mine. I also have an issue with being bad at EO+Line, since cases with adjacent line edges can be annoying, although solving edges other than line edges during EO+Line can lead to a really good ZZF2L.

Any tips?
 

_zoux

Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
101
It's just all about identifying EO patterns quick, and being familiar with most of those, so don't worry about comfort, it will become way better with practice, and about fingertricks, try to use more movesets rather than [RULD: FB], to make this happen try to understand leors, rouxs EO and 2GRs too. + Avoid those sucky R' L' s and U2 D' s because the makes your solve feel too awkward. Also become y neutral, which is same as blue or green front but you count blue or green edges as bad ones instead of red and orange.
 

_zoux

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Joined
Mar 11, 2018
Messages
101
Yeah I sometimes try too hard to preserve blocks and it ends up backfiring. I'll try to work on my TPS, particularly during EOLine, since it is the hardest to finger trick. How fast can you execute LL in OH?
About OHLL, i recommend doing full CPLS (120 algs) and 2GLL
 

ProStar

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Bump.

I'm checking out ZZ and decided I want to get ok at it(by my standards). Most of my solve is decent, but EO is awful(which is to be expected). Most of the time I can't plan out EO with 30 seconds of inspection. Any tips?

Also I want to take some time to talk about how awesome ZZ is. I did a few solves with EO(not line/cross) finished just to see how my F2L and LL were, and I quickly got a 10.25 and 11.34 because of an OLL skip->Jb perm and a PLL skip, respectively(CFOP PB is 12.22, although of course I skipped EO for both those ZZ solves). Also I'm sub-15ish without EO, yet when I have to do EO I'm around 25.
 
Joined
Sep 10, 2019
Messages
1,540
Bump.

I'm checking out ZZ and decided I want to get ok at it(by my standards). Most of my solve is decent, but EO is awful(which is to be expected). Most of the time I can't plan out EO with 30 seconds of inspection. Any tips?

Also I want to take some time to talk about how awesome ZZ is. I did a few solves with EO(not line/cross) finished just to see how my F2L and LL were, and I quickly got a 10.25 and 11.34 because of an OLL skip->Jb perm and a PLL skip, respectively(CFOP PB is 12.22, although of course I skipped EO for both those ZZ solves). Also I'm sub-15ish without EO, yet when I have to do EO I'm around 25.
All you can do is practice. There's no way around it. Keep practicing until you can plan EO.
 

PapaSmurf

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Bump.

I'm checking out ZZ and decided I want to get ok at it(by my standards). Most of my solve is decent, but EO is awful(which is to be expected). Most of the time I can't plan out EO with 30 seconds of inspection. Any tips?

Also I want to take some time to talk about how awesome ZZ is. I did a few solves with EO(not line/cross) finished just to see how my F2L and LL were, and I quickly got a 10.25 and 11.34 because of an OLL skip->Jb perm and a PLL skip, respectively(CFOP PB is 12.22, although of course I skipped EO for both those ZZ solves). Also I'm sub-15ish without EO, yet when I have to do EO I'm around 25.
As WarriorCatCuber said, just practice, it's the best way. Try to inspect it fully every solve, even if it takes you 10 minutes.
 

Etotheipi

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Joined
Mar 21, 2019
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My ZZF2L is really bad, I think my main issues are bad efficiency, probably partly cause I'm used to Roux which has more freedom, and I have horrible lookahead and pauses, especially in between finishing line and starting blocks. Any tips?
 

GenTheThief

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My ZZF2L is really bad, I think my main issues are bad efficiency, probably partly cause I'm used to Roux which has more freedom, and I have horrible lookahead and pauses, especially in between finishing line and starting blocks. Any tips?

Well, one of the first things that is told is to switch to eocross instead of eoline, as that's considered the better approach. But, if you want to stick with eoline and block building F2L, that's fine and you can still get pretty far.

One of my biggest issues is with the line -> F2L transition too. A solution is to make sure that you're planning the entire eoline and then try to track some F2L pieces while you solve it so there's less of a pause after you finish, and it would be even better to inspect as far as eoline+1.

I'm not super familiar with good Roux block building, so I can't really offer suggestions on how to adapt to ZZ block building, but I can point out the ZZ example solve thread as a reasonable resource. You could use the eoline solutions provided and then think about how you would go about solving F2L, and then see how the other solver actually goes about doing that, and try and determine which solution is better.

In addition, I'm sure there are some video walk through solves on ZZ block building and F2L solutions, so if you're more into watching than reading, that could work for you, too.
 

dudefaceguy

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Feb 17, 2019
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Regarding ZZ-d and CPLS, I'm having a hard time seeing the advantage versus doing corner permutation after completing F2L. You save maybe 2 moves versus doing a last layer alg like Niklas, you don't save a look, and the recognition is worse. Am I missing something?
 

GenTheThief

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Regarding ZZ-d and CPLS, I'm having a hard time seeing the advantage versus doing corner permutation after completing F2L. You save maybe 2 moves versus doing a last layer alg like Niklas, you don't save a look, and the recognition is worse. Am I missing something?
From what I understand, you save moves but also cut out a large portion of algs, albiet losing a lot of good ones, but also a lot of bad ones, and are left with only the mostly-good ones, and they all happen to be 2gen.
So its more a thing you would want to try in OH, but its also not the best thing in general, which is why no one uses it.
 

dudefaceguy

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From what I understand, you save moves but also cut out a large portion of algs, albiet losing a lot of good ones, but also a lot of bad ones, and are left with only the mostly-good ones, and they all happen to be 2gen.
So its more a thing you would want to try in OH, but its also not the best thing in general, which is why no one uses it.
I get that you reduce the alg count, but this is true whether you do CP as CPLS or if you do it after completing F2L. You end up in the same cube state either way. As a ZZ noob and intuitive solver who hates learning algs, I am using a 3-look system of CPLL/COLL/EPLL for OH. I could get it down to a 2 look last layer if I did CPLS or another CP method, but I don't see any benefit to doing CP earlier in the solve - it just makes recognition harder.
 
Last edited:

GenTheThief

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What alg set should I start on next after PLL? I was thinking maybe some WV


Is COLL/EPLL worth it for OH?
Personally, the idea of sticking with OCLL and PLL is growing on me. I think that because its such a small set, its very possible to optimize your execution of the algs reasonably easily and learn things like two sided PLL recognition.

I'm not a big fan of COLL/PLL as a set on its own. I think that learning COLL recognition is very useful for predicting PLL (especially in concatonation with systems like JOLL). If you're not going to stick with PLL, I would suggest only using COLL as a stepping stone for ZBLL.

I don't know much about WV, but learning and using some of the simple ones (U R U2 R', R U R' U' R U' R', etc.) is worth it IMO.
 

ProStar

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Personally, the idea of sticking with OCLL and PLL is growing on me. I think that because its such a small set, its very possible to optimize your execution of the algs reasonably easily and learn things like two sided PLL recognition.

I'm not a big fan of COLL/PLL as a set on its own. I think that learning COLL recognition is very useful for predicting PLL (especially in concatonation with systems like JOLL). If you're not going to stick with PLL, I would suggest only using COLL as a stepping stone for ZBLL.

I don't know much about WV, but learning and using some of the simple ones (U R U2 R', R U R' U' R U' R', etc.) is worth it IMO.

Thanks! I've never been a big fan of learning algs(It's not hard, I can just never motivate myself to do it), so I think I'll just stick with OCLL/PLL for now and just pick up a few easy WV/SV cases. What's JOLL? I can't find anything on the wiki
 
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