# [Help Thread]ZZ method / EOLine Discussion

#### Devin Palacios

##### Member
That solution is fine Id do something similar except with blue front yellow top... You should post a few more scrambles and more difficult ones as well one Example isn't enough to help you
U F2 L2 U2 L F R2 D2 L2 F2 U L2 D' U2 B R' U L2 F U2 F2 D' R' L' U ( Z2 U' R F' U B' U' B D R' D') That was a long one
F' B2 L' R D' L2 R B U2 F2 L B' U' F' L F2 L2 U D' R' B R2 L' D L2(Z2 D U2 L F D' B U B' L D')

#### JAS0N

##### Member
As a long time CFOPer I am trying to learn ZZ for fun. I have gone thru every tutorial I could find and maybe I am just being dense (I am blond) but something keeps happening I can't get.

Turning the front or back of the cube a quarter turn is supposed to orientate all bad edges and misorientate all good ones. Assuming white center is on the bottom and blue is in the front, what do you do when all 4 front edges are a combo of red and orange ones? Rotating a quarter turn doesn't matter, you will always have 2 that are either red or orange.

Thanks in advance for any help

#### WombatWarrior17

##### Member
If the edges that have red/orange on them also have white/yellow, then you want red/orange to be facing you, but only if they are on FU and FD; but if they have blue/green instead of white/yellow, then the edges are bad if red/orange is facing you, but only when they are on FL and FR.

Basically, if red/orange is in FL and/or FR, then they are bad.

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#### One Wheel

##### Member
As a long time CFOPer I am trying to learn ZZ for fun. I have gone thru every tutorial I could find and maybe I am just being dense (I am blond) but something keeps happening I can't get.

Turning the front or back of the cube a quarter turn is supposed to orientate all bad edges and misorientate all good ones. Assuming white center is on the bottom and blue is in the front, what do you do when all 4 front edges are a combo of red and orange ones? Rotating a quarter turn doesn't matter, you will always have 2 that are either red or orange.

Thanks in advance for any help
My primary method is CFOP as well, but I think I understand your problem: when you look at the front side all 4 stickers that you see are red/orange, yes? The edges in the U/D layers are already oriented, it's only the 2 edges in the E layer that are misoriented.

#### JAS0N

##### Member
Are only the top and bottom layers important then for edge orientation? My problem is I was going by what the cube.crider website was stating which is this:

1. Look at the U/D faces. If you see:
• L/R colour (orange/red) it's bad.
• F/B colour (green/blue) means you need to look round the side of the edge. If the side is U/D (white/yellow) it is bad.

2. Then look at the F/B faces of the E-slice (middle layer). The same rules apply. If you see:

• L/R colour (orange/red) it's bad.
• F/B colour (green/blue) means you need to look round the side of the edge. If the side is U/D (white/yellow) it is bad.
Well under number 2 even though I know only 2 matter on the front or back, if all 4 edges are red or orange on the front then all I have are bad edges no matter if I rotate F or not since I always end up with red or orange in the 2 front edges.

#### WombatWarrior17

##### Member
1. Look at the U/D faces. If you see:
• L/R colour (orange/red) it's bad.
• F/B colour (green/blue) means you need to look round the side of the edge. If the side is U/D (white/yellow) it is bad.

2. Then look at the F/B faces of the E-slice (middle layer). The same rules apply. If you see:
• L/R colour (orange/red) it's bad.
• F/B colour (green/blue) means you need to look round the side of the edge. If the side is U/D (white/yellow) it is bad.
I use ZZ, and even I'm confused at what this says.

#### JAS0N

##### Member
Basically, if red/orange is in FL and/or FR, then they are bad.
My problem is if all 4 edges on the front are red/orange then rotating the front will always leave the FL and FR with red/orange and thus always be bad. The website was saying a quarter turn on the front fixes all bad edges and makes all good ones bad but in my scenario I have 2 bad no matter what.

#### xyzzy

##### Member
all 4 edges are red or orange on the front
The edges on the top and bottom layers fall under the first case (so both of them are good) and the edges in the E slice fall under the second case (so both of them are bad).

You have two good and two bad on the front face, so if you do an F move, you'll still have two good and two bad. The way to fix this is to move one of the bad edges out of the front face, then do an F move. This will leave you with three bad edges on the front face along with one more bad edge somewhere; bring all of them to the front face then do another F move to fix all of them.

#### WombatWarrior17

##### Member
My problem is if all 4 edges on the front are red/orange then rotating the front will always leave the FL and FR with red/orange and thus always be bad. The website was saying a quarter turn on the front fixes all bad edges and makes all good ones bad but in my scenario I have 2 bad no matter what.
Take the edge from FR out of F with an R, do an F, then replace the edge you just fixed with the bad edge with a U, then do an F'.

#### JAS0N

##### Member
Take the edge from FR out of F with an R, do an F, then replace the edge you just fixed with the bad edge with a U, then do an F'.
Thanks much!

#### JAS0N

##### Member
The edges on the top and bottom layers fall under the first case (so both of them are good) and the edges in the E slice fall under the second case (so both of them are bad).

You have two good and two bad on the front face, so if you do an F move, you'll still have two good and two bad. The way to fix this is to move one of the bad edges out of the front face, then do an F move. This will leave you with three bad edges on the front face along with one more bad edge somewhere; bring all of them to the front face then do another F move to fix all of them.
Also very helpful. You guys are awesome.

#### Y2k1

##### Member
The way I think of eo is in 2 simple rules, Front color on front and top color on top. If a f/b color is on u/d, then it is wrong, and similarly for u/d on f/b being incorrect.

#### xyzzy

##### Member
If a f/b color is on u/d, then it is wrong
Counterexample: LF edge in UF position. Did you mean "l/r" in place of all the "f/b"s?

#### Y2k1

##### Member
Counterexample: LF edge in UF position. Did you mean "l/r" in place of all the "f/b"s?
Yes, I did mean that. Its just a nice condensed understanding of what the rules are conveying in understanding eo.

#### WombatWarrior17

##### Member
I switched to ZZ it recently, I mainly switched for OH and I avg about 26 with it, and I've been wanting to learn ZZ-CT for a while now; so should I work on my EOLine+F2L before learning it, or start ASAP?

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#### PapaSmurf

##### Member
Don’t learn CT. It’s not the best. You’re better leaning ZBLL if you want to be fast. And work on your F2L and eo line and learn full pll then full COLL. From there, give it until you’re around 15 or 16, then 2GLL (I’m giving you the advice I wish I had) and all diag ZBLL. Except for sunes. With CT, there’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s not the best. 1LLL is. That’s the only reason why I don’t recommend. But congrats for switching and keep at it. It’s really fun!

#### WombatWarrior17

##### Member
Don’t learn CT. It’s not the best. You’re better leaning ZBLL if you want to be fast. And work on your F2L and eo line and learn full pll then full COLL. From there, give it until you’re around 15 or 16, then 2GLL (I’m giving you the advice I wish I had) and all diag ZBLL. Except for sunes. With CT, there’s nothing wrong with it, but it’s not the best. 1LLL is. That’s the only reason why I don’t recommend. But congrats for switching and keep at it. It’s really fun!

I have thought about learning ZBLL, but I don't want to, I prefer ZZ-CT and I really want to learn it.
I know learning ZBLL can be done, but I switched to ZZ for OH and CT has great ergonomics for it.

Alg retention is a big factor in my decision too; 493 algs is a lot to remember and recognize, so would ZZLL+Phasing be a good choice?

Edit: I know full PLL and most of COLL (everything but Sune and Anti-Sune), and I avg 26 OH.

#### 1001010101001

##### Member
Should I switch from Roux to ZZ for oh?