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[Help Thread] ZZ method / EOLine Discussion

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ZZ-A at SUB 40?!?!??!?
It may not be full ZZ-A. And if he wants to start learning ZBLL now, then why not?

"Personally, I don't think it's a good idea to wait until an arbitrary time before moving on to learning something new.
Once you're comfortable with something, move on to something more advanced. It's never too early to learn anything!" -TDM

The sooner you learn it, the faster and better your recognition will be later.
 
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What is the general consensus on zz color neutrality? I've been practicing with a fixed front and top and although I'm still new to zz, it seems like it takes a while to plan an eoline and I wouldn't think there would be enough time to plan two, or feel confident about switching after planning a whole one already. Is it better to switch when you have a certain number of bad edges? Or maybe just specific patterns that are annoying to solve? Or if you see after fixing edges, your line is in a bad spot? idk what are your thoughts, is a fixed orientation bad in any way?
 
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What is the general consensus on zz color neutrality? I've been practicing with a fixed front and top and although I'm still new to zz, it seems like it takes a while to plan an eoline and I wouldn't think there would be enough time to plan two, or feel confident about switching after planning a whole one already. Is it better to switch when you have a certain number of bad edges? Or maybe just specific patterns that are annoying to solve? Or if you see after fixing edges, your line is in a bad spot? idk what are your thoughts, is a fixed orientation bad in any way?
Fixed orientation is normal for ZZ, color neutrality does not work, but Y-axis neutrality is pretty good for getting a better EOLine.
 

macncheese

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Oh I meant ocll and pll. I'm thinking of zbll later, but first I need to crawl before I walk (In this case ocll or coll)
 
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GenTheThief

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(1)What is the general consensus on zz color neutrality? (2a)I've been practicing with a fixed front and top and although I'm still new to zz, it seems like it takes a while to plan an eoline and I wouldn't think there would be enough time to plan two, or feel confident about switching after planning a whole one already. (2b)Is it better to switch when you have a certain number of bad edges? (2c)Or maybe just specific patterns that are annoying to solve? (3d)Or if you see after fixing edges, your line is in a bad spot? idk what are your thoughts, is a fixed orientation bad in any way?
So I had a massive post in response to this but then the page restarted and I lost it :(.
(1)There are a bunch of different types of neutrality, but two common ones are "y'/y" neutrality and z2/y2.

y neutrality: If your normal eo looks bad, do a y (or y') and do that eo. A bunch of people do this, and it's a good ability to have in case you get the bad 10 flips or a 12 flip.

z2/y2 neutrality: You don't get a better EO, but it's useful for using free blocks with the wrong down colour, for getting a better line, or having a better fingertrick for EO.

(2a)With practice, y neutrality is totally doable. I don't practice red front anymore, but I was able to do an average of 5 checking both red and blue fronts with inspection at about 12. With practice, it could easily be gotten under 10. (2b) One way would be to stop checking one front if there are two many bad edges, even if you haven't finished checking everything. (3c) I usually switch from blue front to green when my eoline has bad fingertricks. It switches the number of F/B moves that I'm going to have to do. (2d) That's when I do a z2. After checking eoline fingertricks (which decide my front), I'll check if my eoline sucks, and if yellow line is better.

But IMO, you can get plenty fast with a fixed orientation. Also note, I only switch orientation when I'm practicing other stuff. Right now, I practice fixed, but I do want to eventually get to the point where I'm equally fast at any of my four orientations.
 
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Tips for sub 12? I'm mainly struggling with my eoline-f2l transition, and will I need to start open slotting?
 

GenTheThief

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From someone who just sub12 official and is basically global sub12

Open slotting is something that you should probably do, just open the number of ways to solve different pairs that affect other pairs.
Also fluidity and lookahead is always good; you don't need to push tps. You can get pretty decent with only ~4-5 tps.

Make sure that your LL is decent. Drill algs that you know COLL/EPLL, OCLL/PLL, ZBLL
Make sure that the algs you use are good. Fingertricky and short.
 

Lapis

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So I’ve been using ZZ for OH since January of this year and I average low 20s. Any tips for sub 20? Also, what do other ZZ OHers average?
 

PapaSmurf

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I'm averaging about 19. Just try to maximise tps. That's about it and seems to work for me. The rest will come with 2H solving, unless you're one of the people who only uses it for OH. If so, either use ZZ for 2H or CFOP/your 2H method for OH. It get's confusing otherwise IMO.
 

Lapis

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I'm averaging about 19. Just try to maximise tps. That's about it and seems to work for me. The rest will come with 2H solving, unless you're one of the people who only uses it for OH. If so, either use ZZ for 2H or CFOP/your 2H method for OH. It get's confusing otherwise IMO.
I'm actually one of the people that uses it only for OH, but recently I have been using it for 2H as well. I may just end up being method neutral with ZZ and CFOP, since I find both methods really enjoyable.
 

xyzzy

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unless you're one of the people who only uses it for OH
I guess I sort of fall in this category if you exclude FMC.

I actually don't find using different methods for OH and 2H confusing in the least, especially considering the similarity between CFOP F2L and ZZ F2L. For 2H, I average 15 and 18 for CFOP and ZZ respectively, but for OH I average about 26 seconds with both methods, and a bit lower if I choose the method based on the scramble. The discrepancy between my CFOP and ZZ times for 2H is too large to justify being method neutral there, but it certainly makes sense for OH.
 

PapaSmurf

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I guess it’s all about which one you find the most fun. Like I will do zz Most solves, but maybe once every 25, I’ll do petrus if there’a an easy block. But ZZ and CFOP F2L are more different than you think. ZZ is block building, CFOP really isn’t. Yeah, skills transfer, but the ergonomics and tactics are different.
 

GenTheThief

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I average 11.8-12.0 ZZ 2H, 46ish with Feet, and 16.8-17.5 OH.
For me, I've found that if I slow down too much to focus on lookahead and smoothness, I can't actually get decent times. In order for me to get 16.5 or anything decent, I actually need to push my tps.

I don't remember if that's how it is for breaking 20, but OH turning is already slower than 2H turning, so make sure that you're not letting up too much to focus on lookahead and smoothness.
Also, be sure that your solutions are efficient. I like to preserve blocks in order to get nice cases, but when I try to hard, it gets out of hand and I end up spending 10+ of moves to get a 3 move insert instead of taking a 6 move insert.
 

Lapis

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I like to preserve blocks in order to get nice cases, but when I try to hard, it gets out of hand and I end up spending 10+ of moves to get a 3 move insert instead of taking a 6 move insert.
Yeah I sometimes try too hard to preserve blocks and it ends up backfiring. I'll try to work on my TPS, particularly during EOLine, since it is the hardest to finger trick. How fast can you execute LL in OH?
 
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