PhillipEspinoza
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So I've been thinking about this alot and the more I think about it, the more this seems like another version of MGLS. Now, now, hear me out. I know it's annoying af when someone says stuff like this, as it's along the lines of "...or you could just use _____" and it doesn't seem like constructive feedback at all. But listen:
ZZCT is essentially like MGLS but instead of requiring specific placement of both the final edge AND final corner for execution of the LS, it only worries about the permutation of the final edge, and works the permutation of the corner into the algs of the final algorithm, resulting in a larger alg pool than standard CFOP PLL.
It's basically forcing an OLL skip using mainly R U triggers into a larger PLL alg pool.
Why does that sound familiar?
Oh yeah, MGLS. I was thinking if there were any other methods that force an OLL skip, and MGLS kept coming to mind, but I kept batting it away as too simplistic of a comparison to be taken seriously.
But no, by all measures that we gauge the greatness of ZZ-CT, MGLS could be seen as equally as awesome if not better.
1) 2-Gen-ness of the CLS/TSLE steps and cool triggers good for OH/2H
2) 104 algs in CLS compared to 94? in TSLE, so comparable amount of algs for this step.
3) 72 algs to learn how to recognize, recall and react (execute quickly) for TTLL, compared to 21 PLL algs we already know that have proven to be all sub-1-able by elite cubers.
4) Greater chance for a LL skip in MGLS (1/72 or 1.38%) than a TTLL skip in ZZ-CT (1/360 or 0.22%).
5) Similar move counts for CLS and TSLE, combined with greater chance for skip allows for theoretically just as great of a potential for insane 30~ish move solves and insane times when done using ZZ.
6) The difference is one super trivial step of ELS which adds maybe 2-3 moves (translates to 0.25~ish seconds) to your solve. Sometimes ELS is skipped as the edge is already placed (20% chance) in which case ZZ-MGLS is definitely the superlative. If I told you that you could save maybe 0.25 seconds off of your average by learning 72+94 more algs, would you bother if speed is your main goal? Maybe, but most would see this as not worth the time.
I was thinking about how you kept describing TTLL as a bunch of conjugated PLLs, and how you are even working to force PLL during some TSLE cases by paying attention to the position of the bad corner and maybe learning more algs that pay attention to this corner placement to increase an LL skip by forcing PLL. But if your goal is to eventually learn all the algs required to force a PLL skip more often (which I imagine would be pretty dang high) why not just learn CLS and do the 2-3 extra moves it takes to insert the edge?
The entire method definitely sounds like an exciting prospect, but only because of the "LL skip" framing. The real thing that is being skipped is the ELS equivalent of this method and that's because of ZZ orienting all the edges. So ELS is reduced to a simple AUF to position the edge in the UF position. Another way to look at it is ELS is being combined with CLS (without permutation) in TSLE. But it seems like a bunch of alg learning when you can trivially insert an edge and save so much time that would be spent learning algs.
I feel like in fact this is so close to reinventing an alg dense MGLS that it comes across in the additional techniques notes of the OP. In fact to show this let me hypothetically propose a way to expand on the forcing PLL during TSLE idea in a way that would logically follow this progress: you mentioned the algs that have symmetry being easiest to force PLL because you can easily position the corner where it needs to be to force a PLL. An aspecf of those symmetrical algs is also that the edge is already in place, right? So instead of learning a bunch of different TSLE algs (500 more?) to force PLL, how about we just insert the edge and figure out all the algs necessary to force PLL for all the TSLE cases that have the edge in place? How many algs would that be? I think it would reduce it from 500ish to 104? Definitely doable, all it takes is one extra trivial step and we can force PLL during TSLE all the time. Imagine the skip potential!
In summary, I am 100% on team ZZ-CT. I think it's a great new method that provides a unique way to approach the LS+LL. But after thinking about this a lot, it seems like MGLS would make more sense to learn as you don't have to learn to recognize recall and react to 94 new algs and you would have a greater chance of skipping the last step.
ZZCT is essentially like MGLS but instead of requiring specific placement of both the final edge AND final corner for execution of the LS, it only worries about the permutation of the final edge, and works the permutation of the corner into the algs of the final algorithm, resulting in a larger alg pool than standard CFOP PLL.
It's basically forcing an OLL skip using mainly R U triggers into a larger PLL alg pool.
Why does that sound familiar?
Oh yeah, MGLS. I was thinking if there were any other methods that force an OLL skip, and MGLS kept coming to mind, but I kept batting it away as too simplistic of a comparison to be taken seriously.
But no, by all measures that we gauge the greatness of ZZ-CT, MGLS could be seen as equally as awesome if not better.
1) 2-Gen-ness of the CLS/TSLE steps and cool triggers good for OH/2H
2) 104 algs in CLS compared to 94? in TSLE, so comparable amount of algs for this step.
3) 72 algs to learn how to recognize, recall and react (execute quickly) for TTLL, compared to 21 PLL algs we already know that have proven to be all sub-1-able by elite cubers.
4) Greater chance for a LL skip in MGLS (1/72 or 1.38%) than a TTLL skip in ZZ-CT (1/360 or 0.22%).
5) Similar move counts for CLS and TSLE, combined with greater chance for skip allows for theoretically just as great of a potential for insane 30~ish move solves and insane times when done using ZZ.
6) The difference is one super trivial step of ELS which adds maybe 2-3 moves (translates to 0.25~ish seconds) to your solve. Sometimes ELS is skipped as the edge is already placed (20% chance) in which case ZZ-MGLS is definitely the superlative. If I told you that you could save maybe 0.25 seconds off of your average by learning 72+94 more algs, would you bother if speed is your main goal? Maybe, but most would see this as not worth the time.
I was thinking about how you kept describing TTLL as a bunch of conjugated PLLs, and how you are even working to force PLL during some TSLE cases by paying attention to the position of the bad corner and maybe learning more algs that pay attention to this corner placement to increase an LL skip by forcing PLL. But if your goal is to eventually learn all the algs required to force a PLL skip more often (which I imagine would be pretty dang high) why not just learn CLS and do the 2-3 extra moves it takes to insert the edge?
The entire method definitely sounds like an exciting prospect, but only because of the "LL skip" framing. The real thing that is being skipped is the ELS equivalent of this method and that's because of ZZ orienting all the edges. So ELS is reduced to a simple AUF to position the edge in the UF position. Another way to look at it is ELS is being combined with CLS (without permutation) in TSLE. But it seems like a bunch of alg learning when you can trivially insert an edge and save so much time that would be spent learning algs.
I feel like in fact this is so close to reinventing an alg dense MGLS that it comes across in the additional techniques notes of the OP. In fact to show this let me hypothetically propose a way to expand on the forcing PLL during TSLE idea in a way that would logically follow this progress: you mentioned the algs that have symmetry being easiest to force PLL because you can easily position the corner where it needs to be to force a PLL. An aspecf of those symmetrical algs is also that the edge is already in place, right? So instead of learning a bunch of different TSLE algs (500 more?) to force PLL, how about we just insert the edge and figure out all the algs necessary to force PLL for all the TSLE cases that have the edge in place? How many algs would that be? I think it would reduce it from 500ish to 104? Definitely doable, all it takes is one extra trivial step and we can force PLL during TSLE all the time. Imagine the skip potential!
In summary, I am 100% on team ZZ-CT. I think it's a great new method that provides a unique way to approach the LS+LL. But after thinking about this a lot, it seems like MGLS would make more sense to learn as you don't have to learn to recognize recall and react to 94 new algs and you would have a greater chance of skipping the last step.
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