#### wir3sandfir3s

##### Member
Ah ha, I have done it! I figured out how to learn TTLL Algs and I'm now steam rolling through them,mthanks for your help 4Chan!

#### 4Chan

Yeap, it's up to 12k something now, but I haven't been home for almost a week, otherwise it would be like, 13-14k

#### Turn n' burn

##### Member
I admire your dedication. It's hard for me to imagine doing 100+ solves in a single session given how much time that would consume (in my case @ around 29-34 sec.)

#### Cale S

##### Member
TTLL alg I found:
(y x) U2 R2 F R F' R U2 r' U r (x')

#### dwbrwn

##### Member
For TTLL i thought that 1/3 cases were supposed to be 2-gen, but looking at the ttll page it's only the no bar cases plus a couple of others, so just over 1/6th.

#### AlphaSheep

##### Member
For TTLL i thought that 1/3 cases were supposed to be 2-gen, but looking at the ttll page it's only the no bar cases plus a couple of others, so just over 1/6th.
Just over a 6th are pure 2 gen, and just under a 6th are 2 gen after a y'. Add them together and you get exactly one 3rd.

#### dwbrwn

##### Member
ok, i guess the (2 gen after a y' algs) just aren't on the gyroninja page yet, unless I'm missing something.

edit: just realized that they are the "right opposite" cases. Looking forward to learning all of these.

Until I learn all of the algs, I think I'm going to use a 2LLL to force these 2 gen cases, which is why I'm going to learn them first.

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#### PhillipEspinoza

##### Member
I don't like to put limits on things, but in my attempt to learn this I like to predict what I or others can reasonably expect to do speed-wise. If I could somehow get my EO + 1.5 blocks down to 7 seconds (which would be insane for me as I'm currently at 11 seconds) I could probably do TLSE+TTLL in at best 4 seconds which would give me 11ish average without skips. Although skips would happen more often with this method, I don't think they would happen often enough to make a significant difference in averages of 12 or less (correct me if you think I'm wrong).

If someone could open qqtimer and do an average of 12 for 3x3 subsets: ZZ Last Slot + Last Layer and compare the averages of ZZ-ct LS+LL with regular slotting and COLL (or other versions of ZZ), I'd be interested in seeing the actual time differences. This is of course for someone who has mastered ZZct enough to do a consistent average with little pause. I'd predict maybe a OH time difference of 2 seconds at most, for top-level cubers. I imagine you could get your ZZCT LS+LL down to 3.5 seconds OH at fastest compared to a 5.5 second average for regular slotting and COLL. Again, for me, ZZ is still a work in progress and my best average of 12 OH is mid-15 seconds, so in order for this to be superlative for OH, I'd have to get my time for EO Line and first 1.5 slots down to 7 or 8 seconds at most.

Does anyone who's really good at ZZ care to share their average time to get to LS+LL? OH or otherwise, I'd be interested to know.

Another thing I thought about in terms of recognition is the added AUF needed between TLSE and TTLL for recognition. Unlike other variants of ZZ where you might be able to recognize from different angles, it seems with TTLL recognition is best learned with the white corner in UBL. What effect do you think this would have on the fluidity of the "1LLL"? How beneficial is that 1-look if it takes a second to AUF+recog? Just some thoughts.

#### wir3sandfir3s

##### Member
Another thing I thought about in terms of recognition is the added AUF needed between TLSE and TTLL for recognition. Unlike other variants of ZZ where you might be able to recognize from different angles, it seems with TTLL recognition is best learned with the white corner in UBL. What effect do you think this would have on the fluidity of the "1LLL"? How beneficial is that 1-look if it takes a second to AUF+recog? Just some thoughts.
So far it's been fine for me, I have next to no pause and I have just started learning it.

#### 4Chan

Once I get home and situated, I can do some LSLL comparisons. Maybe even compare with some ZBLL.

For me, I know the block arrangement for the TTLL cases, so I can see hem from alternate angles. After a while, it begins to recognize same as PLL blocks

D

#### Daniel Lin

##### Guest
idk if this is an alg already
but I found R2 U R2' U R2 U2 R2'
and its mirror, inverse, and the inverse of the mirror

#### Tao Yu

##### Member
Made some flashcards for TSLE and TTLL (algs from gyroninja, of course):

Anki: TSLE, TTLL
Quizlet: TSLE, TTLL

Nothing too fancy, setup on the front of the card, solutions on the back. Pretty much like the TTLL/TSLE scrambler on gyroninja's website, except you don't have to look up the alg every time, and you get spaced repetition if you use anki.

I think I will learn this. Anki makes the learning experience quite nice.

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#### wir3sandfir3s

##### Member
Made some flashcards for TSLE and TTLL (algs from gyroninja, of course):

Anki: TSLE, TTLL
Quizlet: TSLE, TTLL

Nothing too fancy, setup on the front of the card, solutions on the back. Pretty much like the TTLL/TSLE scrambler on gyroninja's website, except you don't have to look up the alg every time, and you get spaced repetition if you use anki.

I think I will learn this. Anki makes the learning experience quite nice.
Nice thanks. Too bad I already did this for myself, should've been lazy and waited...

#### GenTheThief

##### Member
Does anyone know the ability for recognition?
Like, can TSLE be recognized from only two sides and the top, like OLL?
And is there some form of 2-sided TTLL recognition, similar to PLL?

#### 4Chan

Yep, just like OLL/PLL

TSLE = Look at shapes like OLL
TTLL = Look at blocks like PLL

#### SolveThatCube

##### Member
Okay, I don't know how I haven't come across this method until now but sounds super cool!
Only 2 problems I have with it though:
1: I'd have to learn how to do an efficient EOLine
2: It's still 4 steps
Like CFOP and other methods it is 4 steps. They may or may not be more efficient steps, but for someone who has already learned full OLL, PLL, and a bunch of other algs like I have, it seems like a lot of work to learn a whole new way of solving the LL when they have already learned recognition. It's still a promising method and I hope it progresses well, but most cubers who are decently fast already won't want to change their ways.

I'll still be checking out the algs out of curiosity, and if I decide it's not that hard I'll practice it for a bit and see how it goes from there.
Keep doing what you're doing and maybe someday we'll all be using this method or something even better.

#### 4Chan

Cfop is 50-70 moves and is 7 steps. Cross slot slot slot slot oll pll.
ZZCT is 40-50 moves and is 6 steps. Eoline block block slot TSLE TTLL.

Apart from the 2gen and skip potentials, it's also the same recog skills.

I also don't think anyone will use it to fullest potential because of cfop vs ZZ. I honestly think nobody will choose to main this method into the sub-10 range.

#### AlphaSheep

##### Member
Okay, I don't know how I haven't come across this method until now but sounds super cool!
Only 2 problems I have with it though:
1: I'd have to learn how to do an efficient EOLine
2: It's still 4 steps
Like CFOP and other methods it is 4 steps. They may or may not be more efficient steps, but for someone who has already learned full OLL, PLL, and a bunch of other algs like I have, it seems like a lot of work to learn a whole new way of solving the LL when they have already learned recognition. It's still a promising method and I hope it progresses well, but most cubers who are decently fast already won't want to change their ways.
1. EOLine isn't the hard part. It should take a week of practice to get EOLine in under 10 moves if you've got a decent understanding of the cube. The hard part that takes months to get right is efficient block building for F2L. Believe it or not, it also works the other way. I've always put off learning CFOP because I'd have to learn how to do an efficient cross, and the thought of having to deal with unoriented F2L edges terrifies me.

2. The number of steps is arbitrary and meaningless. I personally see CFOP as having 7 steps, because each F2L pair could be counted as a separate step. In that sense, this has one less step than CFOP, because TSLE replaces the last slot step. You could also view CFOP as 3 steps: Cross, F2L, 2LLL. It just depends on how you choose to divide it up.

Regarding having to drop significant number of algs, that's not at all unique to ZZ-CT. In fact, the number of algs you stop using is the least of any ZZ variant, and far less than if you switched to Roux. PLL is still needed for ZZ-CT, not only because you have a 1 in 5 chance of getting a PLL case after TSLE, but also because any TTLL case with a line can be solved with an R2 setup and a PLL alg. Out of OLL, you can drop every case with unoriented edges as with any ZZ variant, but you can still keep the 7 OCLLs (although I've switched headlights out for triple sexy).

Even coming from ZZ, I'm in the same boat with having to drop algs. I have spent considerable time learning and practicing algs and recognition for around 80 ZBLL cases, which puts me in roughly the same place as someone who's learned the 78 algs for CFOP. It sometimes feels like a waste of effort to abandon two thirds of those and move over to a new method. I think this is the number one reason why CFOP is still the dominant method and so few people ever take the leap to move over to something new.

I can only imagine what it must be like for someone who knows hundreds of ZBLLs

#### SolveThatCube

##### Member
Cfop is 50-70 moves and is 7 steps. Cross slot slot slot slot oll pll.
ZZCT is 40-50 moves and is 6 steps. Eoline block block slot TSLE TTLL.

Apart from the 2gen and skip potentials, it's also the same recog skills.

I also don't think anyone will use it to fullest potential because of cfop vs ZZ. I honestly think nobody will choose to main this method into the sub-10 range.
Okay, I guess I just consider F2L as one step: CFOP, and F2L-1, but your way makes sense.

And I meant added recognition to the algs I already know. (I don't know how Jabari does it )

I think it's a really cool idea and I want to try it out. That's all I was saying.