• Welcome to the Speedsolving.com, home of the web's largest puzzle community!
    You are currently viewing our forum as a guest which gives you limited access to join discussions and access our other features.

    Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community of 35,000+ people from around the world today!

    If you are already a member, simply login to hide this message and begin participating in the community!

ZZ-CT Thread

Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
452
Location
San Diego, California
WCA
2007ESPI01
YouTube
fingertapper88
I think if you look at ZZ-CT as an alternative to ZZ-b or ZZ-a etc, it's so much better as it is the equivalent of forcing one specific cross case but instead of phasing for it you do maybe a less intuitive but arguably more speed adaptive LS step because of the recognizability of TSLE. It's just my opinion but yeah. I also think TTLL is very learnable.

Does anyone know the possibility of a TSLE skip? I had one recently and I think anecdotally it might be less likely than a LL skip.

Also, would it be worth it to investigate a CFOP-friendly version of CT? I guess with ELS...? Or maybe another way to make it more CFOP-friendly?
 

gyroninja

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Messages
139
WCA
2015BOLA02
I think if you look at ZZ-CT as an alternative to ZZ-b or ZZ-a etc, it's so much better as it is the equivalent of forcing one specific cross case but instead of phasing for it you do maybe a less intuitive but arguably more speed adaptive LS step because of the recognizability of TSLE. It's just my opinion but yeah. I also think TTLL is very learnable.

Does anyone know the possibility of a TSLE skip? I had one recently and I think anecdotally it might be less likely than a LL skip.

Also, would it be worth it to investigate a CFOP-friendly version of CT? I guess with ELS...? Or maybe another way to make it more CFOP-friendly?
1/5 f2l edge permuted * 1/81 corners being oriented = 1/405

Assuming my maths are correct.
 

4Chan

Premium Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
2,984
Location
Lumbridge
YouTube
boxxybabee
Yep! 1/405

Also, I think CFOP friendly version is tough, because I think it's at least 1000% more cases because unoriented edges cause the cases to balloon in complexity. ):

Thank you everyone for all the attention you've given to my method, I really appreciate it!
 

Teoidus

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
583
Location
Char
Perhaps you could try and orient edges two at a time so that everything's done by last slot?

Definitely not optimal for use with CFOP, but that could be one approach

Also, what do you think of trying to simultaneously reduce corners to a 2-gen group during TSLE?
 

4Chan

Premium Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
2,984
Location
Lumbridge
YouTube
boxxybabee
Perhaps you could try and orient edges two at a time so that everything's done by last slot?

Definitely not optimal for use with CFOP, but that could be one approach

Also, what do you think of trying to simultaneously reduce corners to a 2-gen group during TSLE?
I've experimented with alternate TSLE cases to force 2-gen and avoid certain subsets, but it's really hard to detect corner permutation sadly, due to the odd corner. ):
 

gyroninja

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Messages
139
WCA
2015BOLA02
Perhaps you could try and orient edges two at a time so that everything's done by last slot?

Definitely not optimal for use with CFOP, but that could be one approach

Also, what do you think of trying to simultaneously reduce corners to a 2-gen group during TSLE?
I don't think it's as fast. Once you get to f2l-1 you hide both corners in the D layer and do porky v1 / alternate tsle alg after recognizing the cp like from porky v1.
 

4Chan

Premium Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
2,984
Location
Lumbridge
YouTube
boxxybabee
I now know "full" TTLL: I know an alg for every case, but I will have to learn some alternate algs for mirror cases. Took me 12 days. Nothing to impress 4Chan of course, but I'm still pretty happy with myself because I've never learned algs at this rate before :)
WOW NICE CONGRATS
YOU ARE COOL BTW
 

Teoidus

Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
583
Location
Char
What are the average movecounts for TSLE and the 2-gen subset of TTLL?

I wonder if TSLE + TTLL is more efficient than LS + 2GLL?
 

4Chan

Premium Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
2,984
Location
Lumbridge
YouTube
boxxybabee
I think the movecounts for the 2gen version are noticeably higher than 3 or even 4 gen TSLE, because I noticed a few long cases have simple RUD solutions. But am too lazy to figure out actual movecounts.

After thousands of hours, LS+2GLL is better, if 2-gen was guaranteed, and the person knows all the blocks for 2gll recog.
However, if someone only practices a few hours a day and has trouble balancing all the blocks in their head, I think TSLE and TTLL would be better
 

SaBReWulF

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2015
Messages
2
I'm having difficulty with recognition for TTLL. I normally learn algs by grouping them by how I recognize them, but I can't come up with a coherent method based on examining the cases nor by looking at how their grouped on gyroninja's site. Any advice?
 

gyroninja

Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2015
Messages
139
WCA
2015BOLA02
I'm having difficulty with recognition for TTLL. I normally learn algs by grouping them by how I recognize them, but I can't come up with a coherent method based on examining the cases nor by looking at how their grouped on gyroninja's site. Any advice?
Perhaps group them by cp subset.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2016
Messages
3
I'm having difficulty with recognition for TTLL. I normally learn algs by grouping them by how I recognize them, but I can't come up with a coherent method based on examining the cases nor by looking at how their grouped on gyroninja's site. Any advice?
The way they are grouped on his website is like this:
Look at the pair of corners on the F face, and then look at the pair of corners on the right face. For example, the 'front bar' cases are those where you have a colour match on the front face but no match on the right face. 'right opp' is where they have opposite colours on the right face but no match on the front face. After you recognise the corner case (which is how the algs are grouped), you recognise the edge permutation cycle by looking at blocks similar to in PLL. If you need more help with this, just ask and I'll expand further.

P.S. Mods are nazis
 
Last edited:

AlphaSheep

Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,079
Location
Gauteng, South Africa
WCA
2014GRAY03
I'm having difficulty with recognition for TTLL. I normally learn algs by grouping them by how I recognize them, but I can't come up with a coherent method based on examining the cases nor by looking at how their grouped on gyroninja's site. Any advice?
If you know two sided PLL recognition, you can simply look at the two sides opposite the bad corner, and associate the TTLL alg with the PLL from that angle. This is really straightforward.

If you don't know two sided PLL recognition, then it's a little more work. With PLL, you would have learnt to identify PLLs by looking for three features - headlights, pairs and blocks. With two sided recognition, you also look at whether the two corner stickers on a side are opposite or adjacent colours. Then look at the edges between the corners. Do either or both of them match a corner sticker (i.e. form a pair), or are they the opposite colour to the corner, e.g. a green edge sticker next to a blue corner sticker? If you start paying attention to things like that, it makes recognition a lot easier.
 
Last edited:

SaBReWulF

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2015
Messages
2
The way they are grouped on his website is like this:
Look at the pair of corners on the F face, and then look at the pair of corners on the right face. For example, the 'front bar' cases are those where you have a colour match on the front face but no match on the right face. 'right opp' is where they have opposite colours on the right face but no match on the front face. After you recognise the corner case (which is how the algs are grouped), you recognise the edge permutation cycle by looking at blocks similar to in PLL. If you need more help with this, just ask and I'll expand further.
Thanks for pointing out the arrangement of the algs on the website. Once I saw it, it was like a light bulb went on. I do know two sided PLL recognition, so all I need now is the practice. Thanks for the help!
 
Joined
Aug 2, 2016
Messages
6
I still did not get the TTLL recog. system, is there any other way to recognize the other cases, other than seeing them as 'analogous' PLL cases? Is there a way to recognize them without knowing super-fast PLL recognition?

I have no problem learning TSLE but TTLL.....that is going a bit awkward......
Any help would be really appreciated :)
 

4Chan

Premium Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
2,984
Location
Lumbridge
YouTube
boxxybabee
I still did not get the TTLL recog. system, is there any other way to recognize the other cases, other than seeing them as 'analogous' PLL cases? Is there a way to recognize them without knowing super-fast PLL recognition?

I have no problem learning TSLE but TTLL.....that is going a bit awkward......
Any help would be really appreciated :)
Actually, yes.

I've been meaning to make a video, but there are at least three systems that I use.
It's tough to memorize 72 block patterns, so as a stop gap, I used to use a combination of baum-harris and edge cycle recognition.
In fact, for two cases in double opposite, there are no visible blocks from the front, so I straight up use baum-harris to see it.

For the cases with all corners correct, I just pick out the opposite edge location, and it proceeds straightforwardly.

I'll make a video eventually!
 

Leibniz

Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2016
Messages
2
Location
Belgium
This ADF thing seems to integrate really well with keyhole. Instead of making an F2L-1 you could also make an F2L minus one random edge and one random corner, then rotate the D layer to move the corner slot under the edge slot and then do TSLE. I don't know if other people are already doing this with last slot methods, but it definitely seems like a good option for ZZ-CT in particular, because people are already doing ADFs to
  • mirror cases, both TSLE and TTLL
  • be slot neutral for LS
Example solve

The main advantage I see to this is that, when you see an F2L slot with just a corner or an edge in it, you can consider it solved and move on to the next pair, knowing that another slot will only need an edge or corner. Now while this means you'll still have to solve three slots, one of those is just one piece and therefore trivial in terms of movecount and recognition time.

I don't know if this is of any use if you always do TSLE with the same slot, but it does add some more flexibility to your solves.
 
Last edited:
Top