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ZZ-CT Thread

AlphaSheep

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I'm wanting to learn zz-ct, after learning normal ZZ with PLL + OCLL, but all the images on the main page for algorithms is gone. What happened, and are there any alternative alg sheets available?
The images used to be generated by http://stachu.cubing.net/v/visualcube.php which also used to generate the images for algdb. It seems that's not up at the moment. The easiest alternative is to paste the algorithms into alg.cubing.net to see which case they solve. I had an alg sheet, but it has worse algs than gyroninja's and also uses stachu's version of visual cube, so it's not much use at the moment either.
 

Tao Yu

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I'm wanting to learn zz-ct, after learning normal ZZ with PLL + OCLL, but all the images on the main page for algorithms is gone. What happened, and are there any alternative alg sheets available?
TTLL is available here (these algs are much better than gyroninja's).

I don't know of a TSLE doc in pdf form though :(

Hopefully Stachu gets his server running again soon.
 

Duncan Bannon

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I posted in his Cuble Home vid. “How is ZZ CT going for you? Sweet video too!!!”

He said “I dont really do CT anymore. Decided it just wasn’t worth it, because it’s not optimized yet”
 

Rusca

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Just out of curiosity, who is using CT as their main method?
I (still) do! And I think I was the first at using it in a world champ, actually, since I used it in Paris (with quite an epic fail result, because it was my first time using it in a competition).


I've gotten better though. Not as good as I'm with CFOP, but still kept using it in comps ever since (now I usually average around 19").

Like, it's a lot more fun than CFOP, so yeah let's keep it. Also it helped me switch to ZZ (standard, not CT) for OH, which already made me better in the event than I was with CFOP.
 
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I (still) do! And I think I was the first at using it in a world champ, actually, since I used it in Paris (with quite an epic fail result, because it was my first time using it in a competition).


I've gotten better though. Not as good as I'm with CFOP, but still kept using it in comps ever since (now I usually average around 19").

Like, it's a lot more fun than CFOP, so yeah let's keep it. Also it helped me switch to ZZ (standard, not CT) for OH, which already made me better in the event than I was with CFOP.
Cool! How long did it take you to learn full TSLE and TTLL?
 

Rusca

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Well, these things are more about being constant than about difficulty, but if you commit, learning one TTLL per day is really affordable (I almost know all of them by now, though still lack like 4 or so. Which is ridiculous but yeah).

Also it helps if you can do symmetrical cases (I just used to check both right-handed and left-handed cases and kept the best algorithm among them, just mirroring it for the other hand), so it's not like I've learned 90 cases, but more like I can do everything having learned maybe 50? I'm not sure.

Oh, and it's easier if you leave the right opposed (+front opposed, cause again, I see that as the same thing) for the end of the learning process, since those can be solved epic quickly with a supersune + EPLL, and thus is not that bad if you don't know them for a while.

And well, I don't really know much algorithms for TSLE (I approach it more like you'd approach intuitive F2L). I know the ones with just one wrong corner, and the ones with the edge already placed, and everything else is mostly just having gained intuitive understanding of how corners work when doing triggers (plus some old Winter Variation/OCLL knowledge).

It's worth noting, though, that you can learn almost only half of the "edge in place" cases if you realize you can convert them into one another by adjusting the D face.
 
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Well, these things are more about being constant than about difficulty, but if you commit, learning one TTLL per day is really affordable (I almost know all of them by now, though still lack like 4 or so. Which is ridiculous but yeah).

Also it helps if you can do symmetrical cases (I just used to check both right-handed and left-handed cases and kept the best algorithm among them, just mirroring it for the other hand), so it's not like I've learned 90 cases, but more like I can do everything having learned maybe 50? I'm not sure.

Oh, and it's easier if you leave the right opposed (+front opposed, cause again, I see that as the same thing) for the end of the learning process, since those can be solved epic quickly with a supersune + EPLL, and thus is not that bad if you don't know them for a while.

And well, I don't really know much algorithms for TSLE (I approach it more like you'd approach intuitive F2L). I know the ones with just one wrong corner, and the ones with the edge already placed, and everything else is mostly just having gained intuitive understanding of how corners work when doing triggers (plus some old Winter Variation/OCLL knowledge).

It's worth noting, though, that you can learn almost only half of the "edge in place" cases if you realize you can convert them into one another by adjusting the D face.
Thanks for the help! I have been approaching TSLE in the same way.
 

ottozing

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For those uninitiated, ZZCT was a somewhat recently developed variant to ZZ where once you hit last slot, you perform an algorithm that inserts the F2L edge while orienting the remaining corner pieces

From there you do an algorithm from the subset known as TTLL where you insert the final corner and solve PLL at the same time

I've had a few people reach out to me in the past asking for advice on how to improve TTLL algorithms, since a lot of the early algorithms are very double turn heavy rather than being optimized for QTM, let alone reduced regrips and raw speed

For ZZCT to even have a chance to be relevant at the highest level of cubing, TTLL being optimized for speed is an absolute must

I don't know how quickly this will happen, because it's going to take someone who's both interested in ZZCT AND is already competent with genning and refining algorithms with things like Cube Explorer, but maybe my recent finding will give someone enough hope to believe in the viability of ZZCT

Over the past few days, I've been experimenting with the CLS case that's just a simple 7 move RUD comm which can be performed 3 different ways along with the "Zeroing" technique

If you have absolutely NO idea what I'm talking about, I have an old video which you can find here that explains it (though it definitely needs an update which I'll get to at some point)

anyway, I realized that because the edge solved Zeroing cases are all super nice (only 2 cases have "iffy" recognition) and that PLL setups like the BLD Yperm are possible, there's clearly a lot of hidden gold in the hypothetical subset where it's essentially a TTLL case, but the F2L corner is flipped

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of these cases were a lot faster than TTLL cases on average

One of the best things about this is it opens the door for a more optimized 2nd to last step in a ZZ context, since you can ignore the orientation of the F2L corner as well as one of the 4 LL corners of your choosing

I don't necessarily think this technique would work super well in a CFOP context when things like VLS/ZBLS/ZBLL etc are available, but if TTLL + the TTLL twisted sets are optimized heavily, I think it's certainly possible that it could work very nicely with distinct OLS cases that turn into one of those 3 sets in 4-8 moves

All in all, developing this would buff ZZCT big time, and as far as I'm concerned it's the #1 place to start looking if you're serious about ZZCT :)
 

ProStar

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For those uninitiated, ZZCT was a somewhat recently developed variant to ZZ where once you hit last slot, you perform an algorithm that inserts the F2L edge while orienting the remaining corner pieces

From there you do an algorithm from the subset known as TTLL where you insert the final corner and solve PLL at the same time

I've had a few people reach out to me in the past asking for advice on how to improve TTLL algorithms, since a lot of the early algorithms are very double turn heavy rather than being optimized for QTM, let alone reduced regrips and raw speed

For ZZCT to even have a chance to be relevant at the highest level of cubing, TTLL being optimized for speed is an absolute must

I don't know how quickly this will happen, because it's going to take someone who's both interested in ZZCT AND is already competent with genning and refining algorithms with things like Cube Explorer, but maybe my recent finding will give someone enough hope to believe in the viability of ZZCT

Over the past few days, I've been experimenting with the CLS case that's just a simple 7 move RUD comm which can be performed 3 different ways along with the "Zeroing" technique

If you have absolutely NO idea what I'm talking about, I have an old video which you can find here that explains it (though it definitely needs an update which I'll get to at some point)

anyway, I realized that because the edge solved Zeroing cases are all super nice (only 2 cases have "iffy" recognition) and that PLL setups like the BLD Yperm are possible, there's clearly a lot of hidden gold in the hypothetical subset where it's essentially a TTLL case, but the F2L corner is flipped

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of these cases were a lot faster than TTLL cases on average

One of the best things about this is it opens the door for a more optimized 2nd to last step in a ZZ context, since you can ignore the orientation of the F2L corner as well as one of the 4 LL corners of your choosing

I don't necessarily think this technique would work super well in a CFOP context when things like VLS/ZBLS/ZBLL etc are available, but if TTLL + the TTLL twisted sets are optimized heavily, I think it's certainly possible that it could work very nicely with distinct OLS cases that turn into one of those 3 sets in 4-8 moves

All in all, developing this would buff ZZCT big time, and as far as I'm concerned it's the #1 place to start looking if you're serious about ZZCT :)
Wouldn't doing WV/SV then PLL be better?
 

GenTheThief

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ZZ-CT is much better. You don't have to pair up your last slot.
Not really...
Overall with ZZ-CT you save about half a move but there are a good 150 extra algs.

ZZ-CT ? Is it this method with Winter Variation but with 81 cases instead of 27, then PLL but with one hundred cases instead of 21?
 

Pyjam

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Because you've quoted me, I'll answer. I was half serious. I haven't tried ZZ-CT. It could be good. Maybe.
If the goal is to avoid learning 493 ZBLL by only learning 180 algs, why not.
 

ottozing

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To be honest, I think sticking with one variant of ZZ is a horrible idea

Minimizing alg count might make sense in the short term, but long term the goal is to be competent with doing everything (this obviously requires learning the most amount of algs)

EDIT:

Wouldn't doing WV/SV then PLL be better?
TTLL twisted cases have a lot of algs that I think are clearly faster than any PLL, namely R' D' R U/U'/U2 R' D R

There's also potential for a lot of cases being equal to PLL like F' R U R' U' R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' & R' F R2 U' R' U' R U R' F' R U R' U' (These are like Jperm speed for me, and they're still way slower than all of those CLS cases)

EDIT 2: Just found F R2 u R' U R U' R u' R2' F' by hand OK there's sooo much gold here good golly
 
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