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ZZ-CT Thread

4Chan

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Has anyone thought of Roux-CT? All you would need to do is tsle during second block and a loose subset of ttll for cmll. Since the edge of tsle isn't necessarily oriented and could be in DF or DB, there would be a lot more cases if you wanted to do it in one look. But if you immediately inserted the edge to DF, you could do change the corner orientation without needing to juggle where the edge is. The goal is to get the corner orientation to match a 1 trigger tsle. This should be able to be done with one trigger. Then you insert the edge back into the top layer with an M' or M2 and do one trigger to solve tsle. After writing this I realize that it is essentially making them all a 4 trigger case that alternate between <M,U> and <R,U> but 1. It's pretty intuitive even compared to normal tsle 2. it can be mirrored to the back slot and would only be 48 cases after the edge is taken out and 3. there's lot of tricks you can do to make cases mor efficient eg. you could insert the edge right away to reduce it to a 2 trigger tsle case.
Then ttll is simple you just generate some algs that disregard eo and the M slice but solve the corner permutation. You could also generate a few more that swap DBR with UBL without needing to do an ADF at the beginning and end. The result is raising the skip chance of cmll from 1/162 to 1/30 and making the recognition of cmll easier.
If anyone has a better idea to do tsle during SB let me know.
Creative thinking is always great :)

I think it's not as good as normal roux, because it's the same amount of steps as doing the slot, and then the CMLL.
):
 

Shiv3r

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I was going to bump this thread, then I realized the last post was earlier today, sooo... Ill just say What I was going to say.
what would the best beginner's variation of ZZ-CT? I have heard of the post here, but I don't completely like it.
Here is what I propose for people just trying to learn the method:
-ZZF2L-1
-intuitive TSLE(try to reduce the case down to one of the 1-trigger inserts)
-TTLL algs to solve corners
-EPLL.

Also, which set of TTLL should I learn first? This is coming from an (almost) purely OH perspective, so I am saying like which TTLL's pop up the most, so I can learn those first?
 

Shiv3r

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I was going to bump this thread, then I realized the last post was earlier today, sooo... Ill just say What I was going to say.
what would the best beginner's variation of ZZ-CT? I have heard of the post here, but I don't completely like it.
Here is what I propose for people just trying to learn the method:
-ZZF2L-1
-intuitive TSLE(try to reduce the case down to one of the 1-trigger inserts)
-TTLL algs to solve corners
-EPLL.

Also, which set of TTLL should I learn first? This is coming from an (almost) purely OH perspective, so I am saying like which TTLL's pop up the most, so I can learn those first?
Also what would the TTLL count be if I permuted corners beforehand with a ZZ-d missing link method like ZZ-porky1 or v2 or something like that? I do ZZ-porky often and I want to reduce the amount of cases I would have to learn. a quick look at the algs looks like it could be either 12 or 24, depending if I am reading it correctly or not.
 

4Chan

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Also what would the TTLL count be if I permuted corners beforehand with a ZZ-d missing link method like ZZ-porky1 or v2 or something like that? I do ZZ-porky often and I want to reduce the amount of cases I would have to learn. a quick look at the algs looks like it could be either 12 or 24, depending if I am reading it correctly or not.
Permuted corners means only 12 possible TTLL cases
 

AlphaSheep

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-intuitive TSLE(try to reduce the case down to one of the 1-trigger inserts)
If you don't know which cases follow which, this can be really difficult to do intuitively because you can go round and round in circles. I say the best beginner TSLE is to try insert the edge with any oriented corner to get an OCLL case. This can be done in at most 2 extra triggers, has near instant recognition, and requires very little thought.
 

Hammer

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If you don't know which cases follow which, this can be really difficult to do intuitively because you can go round and round in circles. I say the best beginner TSLE is to try insert the edge with any oriented corner to get an OCLL case. This can be done in at most 2 extra triggers, has near instant recognition, and requires very little thought.
That's exactly what I thought of earlier; easier recognition, faster algs (for the most part), and not much slower.
 

bren077s

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If you don't know which cases follow which, this can be really difficult to do intuitively because you can go round and round in circles. I say the best beginner TSLE is to try insert the edge with any oriented corner to get an OCLL case. This can be done in at most 2 extra triggers, has near instant recognition, and requires very little thought.
Do you think it is better to do this or to insert the edge with a random corner and do one of the inserted edge TSLEs(like PhillipEspinoza suggested on page 5)?
 

AlphaSheep

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Do you think it is better to do this or to insert the edge with a random corner and do one of the inserted edge TSLEs(like PhillipEspinoza suggested on page 5)?
I think the two complement each other. OCLL is a good starting point because you can start doing it straight away without learning anything new.

Obviously OCLL you want to start expanding toward full TSLE, so you need to decide which of the 97 remaining algs to learn first. Learning the ones with edge already in place is not a bad place to start. There are lots of cases to learn though, so it's not like you can just dive straight into it.

For what it's worth, the path I followed is the one I described on page 4.

There are quite a few options for 2-look TSLE.

The easy way is to pick the easiest F2L case that combines the edge with any corner. This inserts the edge and an oriented corner on D in at most 2 triggers. Then you do OCLL. This is a really easy 2-look system that gets TSLE solved in at most 5 triggers.

The case where all corners are oriented and just the edge needs to be inserted is a good one to learn next: R U' R' U2 R U R'. If the bottom corner is oriented already, do OCLL followed by this.

Once you've got the hang of that, learn the 5 cases with one misoriented corner on top and the corner on D facing forward. You can solve the simple base case with R U R' U R U' R' (Do the inverse to see which case it solves). Three of the remaining cases can be reduced to this base case by putting the misoriented corner in UFR and performing either R U R', R U2 R', or R U' R' to move the F2L edge to UF. The one case that can't be reduced easily is where the corner and edge form a "false pair", in which case just use the WV alg: L' U2 R U R' U2 L.

After learning that, any case with DFR facing forward can be reduced to one twisted corner on top with just a sune or anti-sune.
I didn't mention the three 1 trigger cases. Obviously you should learn to recognise them straight away.

After that, I recommend learning the 5 cases with one twisted corner on top and the corner on DFR facing the side. Only once you've done then should you start learning the remaining cases with ones with the edge in place.

Lastly, you should learn the pseudo-WV cases that you don't already know (cases where the edge is connected to a corner forming a pseudo pair).

This gives a steady progression up until you know about 60 cases. After that you're passed half way and it just becomes a matter of filling in the cases you don't know. With that, it's best to start on the cases that look similar to cases you do know to avoid confusion.
 

IQubic

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Speaking of the right order to learn cases. What's the correct, and simplest way to learn TTLL? I am ambidextrous, so I'll be using all the mirrors. I will then proceed onto learning TSLE. I want to learn ZZ-CT in as painless a way as possible.

Can I also get a list of all the TTLLs that are PLL conjugates and what that conjugate is?
 
Last edited:

mDiPalma

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Jul 12, 2011
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Hi @4Chan

I spent 5 minutes and ran 100k stepwise optimal ZZ-CT solves with the latest version of HARCS.

Code:
   SOLVES: 100000

   LEAST MOVES:    20
   MOST MOVES:     54

   STEP            MEAN            BEST            WORST
   eoline          6.12488         1               8
   lb              9.02099         2               12
   rs+tsle         11.2751         2               14
   ttll            15.5684         0               23
   TOTAL           41.9894         5               57
I know it's not how you guys do it (RS+TSLE at the same time), but these are pretty neat statistics for ZZ-CT "in the limit" of human experience. You can edit the code below (and add your TSLE algs to the TTLL.txt file, using it as an "algset" for both) to more closely match your techniques.

Code:
step eoline
movegroup 1
prunedepth 5
searchdepth 5
epmask 0x00000000f0f0
eomask 0xffffffffffff
cpmask 0x00000000
comask 0x00000000
cnmask 0xfff

step lb
movegroup 5
prunedepth 6
searchdepth 6
epmask 0x0000f00ff0ff
eomask 0xffffffffffff
cpmask 0x0000f00f
comask 0x0000f00f
cnmask 0xfff

step rs+tsle
movegroup 4
prunedepth 7
searchdepth 7
epmask 0x0000ffffffff
eomask 0xffffffffffff
cpmask 0x0000ff0f
comask 0xffffffff
cnmask 0xfff

step ttll
algset TTLL.txt
epmask 0xffffffffffff
eomask 0xffffffffffff
cpmask 0xffffffff
comask 0xffffffff
cnmask 0xfff

all eoline lb rs+tsle ttll

Code:
R' D' R U' R2 D' R U' R' D R U D R
R U R' U R U R' U R U' R' U R U R' U R U R'
R U' R' U R U2 R' U' R U R'
R U' R' U' R U2 R' U2 R U2 R' U R U R'
R2 U2 R U' R' U R' U2 R2 U R U R'
R U2 R' U' R' U2 R2 U R2 U R
R2 U R2 U R2 U2 R2
R' U' R' U R U2 R U2 R2 U' R U R
R2 U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2
R U' R' U R2 U R' U R' U' R2 U' R' U2 R'
R' U2 R U2 R U R' U2 R U R' U' R' U2 R
R' U' R2 U' R2 U2 R U R U2 R'
R U2 R' U2 R U2 R' U' L U' R U L' U R'
R U' R D R' U R U D' R D R' U' R D' R
D R' U R U' R' U2 R U R' U' R D'
R U R' U' R U' R D R' U2 R D' R' U R' U R U' R'
R U R' U' R U R' U2 R U2 R2 U L U' R U L'
D R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R2 D'
F' U2 F U F U2 F2 U' F2 U' F'
R U' R' U' R U' R' L U' R U L' U R' U R U' R'
D R2 U2 R2 U R2 U R2 D'
R U2 L U L' U R' U2 L U R U2 R' L'
R2 U2 R U2 R' U R' U' R U R' D R' U R D'
F U F2 U F2 U2 F' U' F' U2 F
R' D R D' R' U R D2 R' U' R D' R' D' R
R' F R F' R' F R F' R' F R F'
R' U' R' U R2 D' R U2 R' U2 R U' R' D R'
R U R' U' R U2 R D R' U R' U' R U R2 D' R
R2 D R2 U2 R2 U R2 U R2 U2 D' R2
R' U R D' R U R' D R' U' R U' R2 U R U' R' U R'
R2 D U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R2 D' R2
R U D' R U' R' U R U' R' U R2 U R' U' R' U' R' U D R'
R U' R' U' R U' R' U2 R U R' U' R' U L U' R U L'
R2 U R' U R U' R' U' D R2 U' R' U R2 U' D' R'
R U R' U' R U' L U' R' U L' U2 R U' R' U' R U' R'
R2 U R2 D U R2 D' R2 U2 R2 D R2 D'
R' U R U' R U' R U' R U R' L' U R' U' L
R U' R U' R' U R' U R2 D' R U R' U' D R
R U R' U' R U R' L' U2 R U R' U2 R L U' R'
R U R' U' R U' R' U' R U R D R' U' R D' R' U R'
R U F R U R' U' F' R2 F R F' R U' R'
R' U' R U' R2 U D R' U' R D' R2 U R2 U R
R2 U R2 D R2 U' R D' R D R' U R U' R D'
R2 U R2 U' R2 D R2 U' R2 U R2 D'
R U2 R U2 D R2 U' R' U R2 D' R' U' R' U' R2
R U' R' D R' U R U' R' U' R D' R2 U R U' R2
R2 U F R U' R' U R U R2 F' U' R' U R'
R' U2 R' U R U' D' R U2 R U R U' R2 D R
R' U2 D R D' R' U' R D R' U' D' R
R U2 R' U2 R U' R' U2 R2 D R' U2 R D' R2
R U2 R2 U D' R U R' D R2 U' R U' R' U R2
L' U2 R U R' U' R U' L U' R' U R U' R'
R2 U' R' U L' U2 R U' R' U2 L R U R2
R U2 R' D R U R U2 R' U R' U' R2 U2 R' U R' D'
R' U R U2 D R' U' R U2 D' R' U' R U' R' U R
R2 U R2 U' R2 U2 D R2 U' R2 U R2 D'
R' U' R D R' U' R D' R' D' R U R' U D R
R U' R D R' U2 R D' R' U2 R' U' R U2 R'
R' L U' R2 U' R' U' R U2 R2 L' U R
R U2 R' U R U' R U R' U D' R U R' D R U R2
R' U D R D' R' U R D R' U2 D' R
R' D R2 D' R' U2 R D R2 D' R U' R' D R U' R' D' R
R U R' U' R U L' U R' U R U' R' U2 L
R U R' U' R U' R' U' R U R' U' R' D' R U R' D R
R' U' D' R U' R' D R D R' U R D' R' U R U
R' U2 R D R' U' D2 R U R' U2 D2 R D'
R U2 R' U R U R' U' L U' R U L' U' R'
D R U R' D' R U R' D R D R' U' R U' D' R' D'
D R2 U' R2 U R2 U2 D' R2 U R2 U' R2
R U2 R' U2 R U' R' U2 L' U R U' L U2 R'
R U2 R U D' R U' R' U2 D R2 U' R
D R' U R' U2 R D' R U R2 U D R2 D' R'
l' U R' D2 R U' R' D2 R2 x'
x R2 D2 R U R' D2 R U' R x'
x' R U' R' D R U R' D' R U R' D R U' R' D' x
M' U2 L F' R U2 r' U r' R2 U2 R2 x
R2 D B' U B' U' B D' R2 F' U F
F' U' F R2 D B' U B U' B D' R2
R2 D' F U' F U F' D R2 B U' B'
B U B' R2 D' F U' F' U F' D R2
M2 U M2 U2 M2 U M2
R' U L' U2 R U' R' U2 R L
R U2 R' U' R U2 L' U R' U' L
L U' R U2 L' U R' L U' R U2 L' U R'
R' U L' U2 R U' L R' U L' U2 R U' L
L U2 L' U2 L F' L' U' L U L F L2
R' U2 R U2 R' F R U R' U' R' F' R2
F2 D R2 U' R2 F2 D' L2 U L2 U'
M2 U M' U2 M U M2
M2 U' M' U2 M U' M2
F' U F' U' R' F' R2 U' R' U R' F R F
R2 U' R2 U' R2 U R' F' R U R2 U' R' F R
M2 U M2 U M' U2 M2 U2 M'
 

lillod

Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Messages
16
I'm close to meeting my compromise goal of learning tll by nats. I should be able to recognize most of the case and if not I could get them with a glance at how they start. My plans for after nationals are to switch my edge in slot 2 look tsle to a move optimal 2 look and spam solves to improve. Hope to see some of you guys there;)
 

JTay

Member
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Aug 11, 2013
Messages
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Location
The Great State of Texas
@Aerma I've developed the Ribbon method as a means of ending a solve with TTLL for CFOP users. It has about 47-50 moves on average, does not hinder color neutrality in any way, and can be applied just as well to big cubes as normal CFOP. I have the general outline of the method in the first document and the updated algorithms in the next.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bzm7fHMKOwCBb201b29RaUlHYms/view?usp=sharing - General Outline

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1D26FLNRhHs5RBXswyfjaKzL_5bboleo6YxYKq3osYGQ/edit?usp=sharing - Printable Algorithm Sheets
 

TyeDye

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Mar 26, 2016
Messages
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Location
Kansas, USA
WCA
2017WIEC02
Alright, I'm gonna start off by saying that I know that this has already been brought up a few times and I apologize for bringing it up again but: TTLL recognition. I understand that they are split into the 6 subsets with the corners and that part is incredibly simple but I can't find easy recognition with the edges. In the TTLL recognition video, Baum-Harris recognition was mentioned, but I can't find information on what this is. Could someone explain specifically what Baum-Harris recognition is, please? And also, just another quick question. Is every TTLL case recognizable by the 2-sided recognition of the front and right sides of the top layer or do you have to see the back/left sides at any point?
 

AlphaSheep

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Nov 11, 2014
Messages
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Location
Gauteng, South Africa
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2014GRAY03
Alright, I'm gonna start off by saying that I know that this has already been brought up a few times and I apologize for bringing it up again but: TTLL recognition. I understand that they are split into the 6 subsets with the corners and that part is incredibly simple but I can't find easy recognition with the edges. In the TTLL recognition video, Baum-Harris recognition was mentioned, but I can't find information on what this is. Could someone explain specifically what Baum-Harris recognition is, please? And also, just another quick question. Is every TTLL case recognizable by the 2-sided recognition of the front and right sides of the top layer or do you have to see the back/left sides at any point?
Assuming the D corner is in back left, yes, every case can be recognised from just the front and right sides (actually, any two sides and the top will do, but it's easiest to do from the same angle every time)

First recognise the corner permutation group.

To recognise which case you have in the group, look at the front edge and compare colour to the front sticker of the front right corner. Either you have it adjacent, opposite, or matching the corner sticker. If it is an adjacent colour, then look at the right sticker on the corner, it could be opposite or match that sticker. That gives 4 possible sets.

Then look at the sticker on the right edge and compare it to the right sticker of the front right corner. It can be opposite, matching or adjacent, and again.

Then you have to manually associate somehow each case with the alg. This is the hard part, and just takes rote memorization.

So you look at CP, front edge, and right edge, then try associate the alg for that case.

In practice, it's best to spot other patterns such as pairs or edges matching stickers on corners other than the front right sticker as often these are more noticeable.
 
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