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ZZ-CT Thread

Joe Archibald

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Joined
Jan 4, 2020
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15
does anyone have any tips for learning tsle i was thinking of trying to grind 'solves' and learn it intuitively
 

PapaSmurf

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Jan 4, 2018
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693
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2016TUDO02
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Learn ZBLL, but if you are going to learn TSLE, you could either do it intuitively, or you could do the tree thing. I don't have a link, but on the ZZ method site in my signature there is a doc on the external resources page.
 

AlphaSheep

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Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,081
Location
Gauteng, South Africa
WCA
2014GRAY03
does anyone have any tips for learning tsle i was thinking of trying to grind 'solves' and learn it intuitively
It's about 4 years since I learned TSLE, and I don't use it any more, but I think the approach I used made it one of the easiest alg sets I've learned. Here's a spreadsheet with my algs. I started making notes on most of them, but unfortunately stopped adding my notes to the spreadsheet halfway through.

I practiced using 2-gen scrambles on qqtimer.net. Under scramble type, scroll down to the speciality scrambles and pick 3x3 subsets, and then choose the 2-gen <R,U> scrambles. Sure, you have to solve a block, but I found it more fair and useful to drill recognition while finishing the block rather than have the case already there immediately after scrambling. It also lets you practice slot neutrality (I was neutral between the FR and BR slots)

The order I recommend learning them is this:
  1. You should already know the 7 OCLLs, but I suggest replacing the headlights alg with just triple sexy.
  2. Learn the all oriented case, R U' R' U2 R U R'. You can also easily force this in solves - just insert any corner oriented but don't insert the edge, then do an OCLL, then you get this case.
  3. Learn the 3 one-trigger cases. Every OCLL ends in a trigger, so to learn them, just pause and check what it looks like before your last 3 moves and you'll be able to recognise the cases in no time.
  4. Next, learn the 10 single corner twisted cases when DFR is twisted to the front. Start with R U R' U R U' R', then learn the WV alg for the case with the pseudo pair L' U2 R U' R' U2 L, then learn how the remaining 3 cases reduce to the first. When DFR is twisted to the right, some of the cases aren't great, so I was using a y' rotation and mirroring and using the mirrors from the back for those at first. (
  5. Learn the 21 remaining cases where the edge is in place. The only bad case is the 4 clockwise corners case. For that, I do a y' rotation and mirror the counter-clockwise alg. You can then switch your 2-look method to a single trigger to insert the edge, and then do the edge-in place case.
  6. Go through and learn the remaining two-trigger cases.
  7. Next, there 23 cases that I called Sune reductions. You already know 3 (all single twist). These are cases where either a single trigger reduces to a Sune or Anti-sune OCLL (there are 13 of these), or an Sune or Anti-Sune reduces to a single trigger (there are 10 of these, including the 3 you already know. If you're using a y' rotation for any of them, now's a good time to fix those)
  8. There are 4 "bad" cases that can't be solved in 3 triggers or less. You already know one (the 4 clockwise corners case). Now's a good time to learn decent algs for the other 3 cases. R U R D R' U R D' R' U' R', R2 D R' U' R D' R2 and F' R U R' U' R' F R.
  9. You're about 60% of the way there. To finish off, start with the OCLLs that have the edge in the top layer (the DFR oriented cases)
  10. Finally, learn the rest in order of number of twists - start with the 2 twists, then the 3 twists, then finally, the 4 twist cases.
Once you've got TSLE down, you can start learning TTLL. Then, if you're anything like me, you'll find that most of the algs just don't flow well at all, despite the considerable effort I put in over several months trying to generate decent algs, and you'll eventually give up on ZZ-CT altogether and just learn ZBLL like all the sensible people.
 

zzcuberman

Member
Joined
Jul 27, 2020
Messages
84
It's about 4 years since I learned TSLE, and I don't use it any more, but I think the approach I used made it one of the easiest alg sets I've learned. Here's a spreadsheet with my algs. I started making notes on most of them, but unfortunately stopped adding my notes to the spreadsheet halfway through.

I practiced using 2-gen scrambles on qqtimer.net. Under scramble type, scroll down to the speciality scrambles and pick 3x3 subsets, and then choose the 2-gen <R,U> scrambles. Sure, you have to solve a block, but I found it more fair and useful to drill recognition while finishing the block rather than have the case already there immediately after scrambling. It also lets you practice slot neutrality (I was neutral between the FR and BR slots)

The order I recommend learning them is this:
  1. You should already know the 7 OCLLs, but I suggest replacing the headlights alg with just triple sexy.
  2. Learn the all oriented case, R U' R' U2 R U R'. You can also easily force this in solves - just insert any corner oriented but don't insert the edge, then do an OCLL, then you get this case.
  3. Learn the 3 one-trigger cases. Every OCLL ends in a trigger, so to learn them, just pause and check what it looks like before your last 3 moves and you'll be able to recognise the cases in no time.
  4. Next, learn the 10 single corner twisted cases when DFR is twisted to the front. Start with R U R' U R U' R', then learn the WV alg for the case with the pseudo pair L' U2 R U' R' U2 L, then learn how the remaining 3 cases reduce to the first. When DFR is twisted to the right, some of the cases aren't great, so I was using a y' rotation and mirroring and using the mirrors from the back for those at first. (
  5. Learn the 21 remaining cases where the edge is in place. The only bad case is the 4 clockwise corners case. For that, I do a y' rotation and mirror the counter-clockwise alg. You can then switch your 2-look method to a single trigger to insert the edge, and then do the edge-in place case.
  6. Go through and learn the remaining two-trigger cases.
  7. Next, there 23 cases that I called Sune reductions. You already know 3 (all single twist). These are cases where either a single trigger reduces to a Sune or Anti-sune OCLL (there are 13 of these), or an Sune or Anti-Sune reduces to a single trigger (there are 10 of these, including the 3 you already know. If you're using a y' rotation for any of them, now's a good time to fix those)
  8. There are 4 "bad" cases that can't be solved in 3 triggers or less. You already know one (the 4 clockwise corners case). Now's a good time to learn decent algs for the other 3 cases. R U R D R' U R D' R' U' R', R2 D R' U' R D' R2 and F' R U R' U' R' F R.
  9. You're about 60% of the way there. To finish off, start with the OCLLs that have the edge in the top layer (the DFR oriented cases)
  10. Finally, learn the rest in order of number of twists - start with the 2 twists, then the 3 twists, then finally, the 4 twist cases.
Once you've got TSLE down, you can start learning TTLL. Then, if you're anything like me, you'll find that most of the algs just don't flow well at all, despite the considerable effort I put in over several months trying to generate decent algs, and you'll eventually give up on ZZ-CT altogether and just learn ZBLL like all the sensible people.
ive generated pretty good TTLLs sooo lol
 

AlphaSheep

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Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
1,081
Location
Gauteng, South Africa
WCA
2014GRAY03
ive generated pretty good TTLLs sooo lol
Depends what you mean by "pretty good" and what you're comparing them to. You'll notice I didn't say the algs were bad, I said they didn't flow well. People complain about N perms. There are about 30 TTLL cases that have the best algs are on a par with or slightly longer than N perms and flow similarly. That makes up about 40% of the set. To compare, for ZBLL my experience after learning 240+ of them is that only 15% or so are annoying like that. I have no doubt you can generate pretty good algs for the majority of TTLL cases. I did too. The rest of the cases are just meh. They're not terrible, they're just a little too long (17+ moves) or have one too many regrips, or things like that. I looked at every alg Cube Explorer gave in RUD, RUF and RUL, and most algs in RUFD, and used some scripts of my own to filter through cases to find all RrUF and RrUD algs of 13 moves or less. What are you doing differently to find algs?
 

OreKehStrah

Member
Joined
May 24, 2019
Messages
321
Depends what you mean by "pretty good" and what you're comparing them to. You'll notice I didn't say the algs were bad, I said they didn't flow well. People complain about N perms. There are about 30 TTLL cases that have the best algs are on a par with or slightly longer than N perms and flow similarly. That makes up about 40% of the set. To compare, for ZBLL my experience after learning 240+ of them is that only 15% or so are annoying like that. I have no doubt you can generate pretty good algs for the majority of TTLL cases. I did too. The rest of the cases are just meh. They're not terrible, they're just a little too long (17+ moves) or have one too many regrips, or things like that. I looked at every alg Cube Explorer gave in RUD, RUF and RUL, and most algs in RUFD, and used some scripts of my own to filter through cases to find all RrUF and RrUD algs of 13 moves or less. What are you doing differently to find algs?
I can’t speak for all the algs, but I tried a few and his algs are actually not bad. Way better than some of Justin’s.
 
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I'm gonna start learning TSLE again (yay!) but I would like to know, what are the advantages of ZZ-CT over ZZ-a and CFOP?
Well, ZZ CT is kinda not better than ZZ-A, it's basically just OCLL + PLL plus one corner. And against, CFOP, well I think optimized algs of TSLE and TTLL is pretty competitive against OLL and PLL (all other advantages of ZZ-A besides the LL apply with ZZ-CT with ZZ-CT having one handicap, slot neutrality, you'll have to pretty much force FR everytime unless you mirror TSLE/TTLL algs and the ergonomics become ew and slot neutrality is pretty important, for example, if you have a really nice third pair case that is in FR, you'll have to ignore that cause you need to solve the other pair first to get FR as your last slot.)
 
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