[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[YddEd]

so i'm assuming you figured out how to detect edges and are having trouble orienting them?

if read a bit on edge orientation strategy.

I read a bit, does it mean I can do F/B2?

 

[aznanimedude]

F2/B2 does not affect the orientation of edges, single F/B turns do

 

[YddEd]

F2/B2 does not affect the orientation of edges, single F/B turns do

Is a EO Line just oriented edges with a line down the bottom that's the right way? (e.g white+blue edge goes with white and blue centres.)

 

[cubingawsumness]

Is a EO Line just oriented edges with a line down the bottom that's the right way? (e.g white+blue edge goes with white and blue centres.)

pretty much
You can think of the line as kind of a half cross on the bottom layer. FD and BD edges are solved. All other edges are oriented.

 

[YddEd]

pretty much
You can think of the line as kind of a half cross on the bottom layer. FD and BD edges are solved. All other edges are oriented.

So once all the edges are oriented you can do any move apart from f and b moves and it will still be oriented?

 

[Username]

So once all the edges are oriented you can do any move apart from f and b moves and it will still be oriented?

And no wide moves or slices

 

[YddEd]

And no wide moves or slices

No wide moves, slices and f'b turns and it will always be oriented?

 

[MWilson]

No wide moves, slices and f'b turns and it will always be oriented?

Think of it this way. If you have a solved cube and you only do U, D, L, and R moves to scramble it, then the cube can be solved even using only U, D, L, and R moves.

Hold a solved cube with green on front and white on top. Look at the the white/orange edge at UL. It's solved, so clearly it's correctly oriented. Now do as many U, D, L, and R face turns as you want to as a scramble. Really scramble it up a lot using only those faces, and then find the white/orange edge, and using only U, D, L, and R face turns, move it back to UL. See that it is still oriented correctly.

Now, with the white/orange edge solved in UL, do L F U, and see that it is now back where it was, but incorrectly oriented. In fact, not only is that edge incorrectly oriented, so are all the other edges that were on the F face when you turned it.

So, when you do a quarter turn on the front or back face, you are "toggling" the orientation of all edges on that face. The ones that were good become bad, and the ones that were bad become good. This is also why you can do a half turn on F or B and not have changed edge orientation, since a half turn is just two quarter turns, and so you are toggling the same edges twice to no overall effect.

Now with wide and slice moves, you just need to be aware that you are changing the orientation of the cube by moving the centers. So for example, if you scramble a cube using U, D, L, and R face turns, then do u', the center that was on the left is now on the front, and the front is on the right. You essentially just did a D' and then a y'. So, move set would change to U, D, F, and B, which are really the same faces as before, you're just looking at the cube from a different side. Same with slices, in fact EO in Roux takes advantage of slice turns to do EO toggles of the top edges by moving the front or back center to the top and then doing U. For example, if you have four bad edges at UL, UR, UF, and DF, you can do L R' F, which brings the UL and UR edges down to the front face and toggles them all to good, or you can do M' U which brings the UF and DF edges to the top along with the front center and toggles them all to good.

 

[Petro Leum]

Think of it this way. If you have a solved cube and you only do U, D, L, and R moves to scramble it, then the cube can be solved even using only U, D, L, and R moves.

Hold a solved cube with green on front and white on top. Look at the the white/orange edge at UL. It's solved, so clearly it's correctly oriented. Now do as many U, D, L, and R face turns as you want to as a scramble. Really scramble it up a lot using only those faces, and then find the white/orange edge, and using only U, D, L, and R face turns, move it back to UL. See that it is still oriented correctly.

Now, with the white/orange edge solved in UL, do L F U, and see that it is now back where it was, but incorrectly oriented. In fact, not only is that edge incorrectly oriented, so are all the other edges that were on the F face when you turned it.

So, when you do a quarter turn on the front or back face, you are "toggling" the orientation of all edges on that face. The ones that were good become bad, and the ones that were bad become good. This is also why you can do a half turn on F or B and not have changed edge orientation, since a half turn is just two quarter turns, and so you are toggling the same edges twice to no overall effect.

Now with wide and slice moves, you just need to be aware that you are changing the orientation of the cube by moving the centers. So for example, if you scramble a cube using U, D, L, and R face turns, then do u', the center that was on the left is now on the front, and the front is on the right. You essentially just did a D' and then a y'. So, move set would change to U, D, F, and B, which are really the same faces as before, you're just looking at the cube from a different side. Same with slices, in fact EO in Roux takes advantage of slice turns to do EO toggles of the top edges by moving the front or back center to the top and then doing U. For example, if you have four bad edges at UL, UR, UF, and DF, you can do L R' F, which brings the UL and UR edges down to the front face and toggles them all to good, or you can do M' U which brings the UF and DF edges to the top along with the front center and toggles them all to good.

well explained, may i reuse some of you explanatory steps/ideas for some future tutorials i will be doing?

 

[MWilson]

Yeah, no problem. There are many ways of explaining the concept, but I think video examples (I assume you mean video) are always clearer, and I don't have any means to record.

 

[YddEd]

Think of it this way. If you have a solved cube and you only do U, D, L, and R moves to scramble it, then the cube can be solved even using only U, D, L, and R moves.

Hold a solved cube with green on front and white on top. Look at the the white/orange edge at UL. It's solved, so clearly it's correctly oriented. Now do as many U, D, L, and R face turns as you want to as a scramble. Really scramble it up a lot using only those faces, and then find the white/orange edge, and using only U, D, L, and R face turns, move it back to UL. See that it is still oriented correctly.

Now, with the white/orange edge solved in UL, do L F U, and see that it is now back where it was, but incorrectly oriented. In fact, not only is that edge incorrectly oriented, so are all the other edges that were on the F face when you turned it.

So, when you do a quarter turn on the front or back face, you are "toggling" the orientation of all edges on that face. The ones that were good become bad, and the ones that were bad become good. This is also why you can do a half turn on F or B and not have changed edge orientation, since a half turn is just two quarter turns, and so you are toggling the same edges twice to no overall effect.

Now with wide and slice moves, you just need to be aware that you are changing the orientation of the cube by moving the centers. So for example, if you scramble a cube using U, D, L, and R face turns, then do u', the center that was on the left is now on the front, and the front is on the right. You essentially just did a D' and then a y'. So, move set would change to U, D, F, and B, which are really the same faces as before, you're just looking at the cube from a different side. Same with slices, in fact EO in Roux takes advantage of slice turns to do EO toggles of the top edges by moving the front or back center to the top and then doing U. For example, if you have four bad edges at UL, UR, UF, and DF, you can do L R' F, which brings the UL and UR edges down to the front face and toggles them all to good, or you can do M' U which brings the UF and DF edges to the top along with the front center and toggles them all to good.

Thank you, very good explanation.

 

[Username]

One ZZ example solve from me. Tips?

U B' R' L U R' U' F L' B2 D2 R2 F' U2 L2 B U2 L2 F D2

R L' U2 F B2 R F' U' F R2 U2 R2 L2 //EOC
L U2 L' U2 R' U' R2 L' U2 R' U R U' R' //Right
L U2 R U R' U2 (Triplesexy in the back) //Left
Do LL however you like

 

[Pyjam]

Don't do EOC. You can't plan it.

Do slow solves for training and learn to recognize patterns for blockbuilding.

R D' L' F U' R2 L' B' : (8) EOL
R U L R2 U' L2 R2 U2 L U' L' U L : (21) Left 223 block
R' : after this, I recognize a pattern, so I don't do : U R' U' R2 but...
U2 R' U' R U R2 U2 R2 : (30) F2L
U2 R (z) R D' U' R2' D R2 D' R2' U R' D R2 D' R' : (46) ZZLL Pi

 

[mDiPalma]

L' B2 R F U' R2 B'
U2 L U' L2 U' R' U' L'
U2 R U R' U' R2 U R U2
z' y
R2 F r U' r' R F' r U' r' F R
=36 htm

 

[TheNextFeliks]

How I would do it. Solving in scrambling orientation.
R L' U F U' B' R B U2 B2 (bad eoline)
L' U2 L U' L2 R' U2 R2 U2 R U2 R' U R
L' U L U' L' L2 U' L2 U' L2 U2 L2
U' R U R' U R U2 R'
R perm plus auf

 

[ryn ball]

Hello guys i'm currently new in this forum, Way back 2009 I was a CFOP user w/ 25s ave but never continued to practice more and this month I decided to come back at speed cubing but ZZ caught my attention and so decided to study it for a month (started April 1, 2013) and I'm glad about my performance on it and I'm loving it even though I was sick at EOLines and F2l block making. I was able to average around 26s pb: 19s worst: 35s w/c is I think good for me for a month that is competitively catching up my CFOP ave.
Currently my LL approach was OCLL-PLL, my question is: how many of you guys using COLL-EPLL? is it advantageous?. By the time I'm good at EOL+F2l i dont know what to do about my LL approach, ZZLL is promising in my part but lots of algs next to it was COLL-EPLL w/c is appealing to me because some of PLL algs I used throws me away executing it.

Thanks guys!

 

[sud_darkhell]

Currently my LL approach was OCLL-PLL, my question is: how many of you guys using COLL-EPLL? is it advantageous?. By the time I'm good at EOL+F2l i dont know what to do about my LL approach, ZZLL is promising in my part but lots of algs next to it was COLL-EPLL w/c is appealing to me because some of PLL algs I used throws me away executing it.

Thanks guys!

I average around 27s with ZZ (I do just 20-30 solves per day) and I use COLL+EPLL. I have never used Fridrich so I do not know all OLLs and PLLs (except OCLL and EPLL). Personally, I find PLL algs awkward to execute.

COLL+EPLL is much more efficient than OCLL+PLL since the former takes less number of moves. Also, the chance of getting EPLL skip is higher if you do COLL. The recognition is also useful if you plan to learn ZZLL. So I think COLL+EPLL is advantageous.

 

[aznanimedude]

i'm kinda close to sub 20 ZZ using COLL+EPLL (like 20.xx Average of 100), and most of the ZZ solvers i know around here also actually use COLL+EPLL, that being said, it's not necessarily faster.

Eli Lifland aka uvafan is blazingly fast and uses OCLL+PLL. I do COLL+EPLL because i'm learning ZZLL for lulz and i like COLL and at this point i'm slower just doing normal OCLL+PLL because i think COLL first anyway so i'd actually spend more time really looking then doing an OCLL than looking and executing a COLL.

That's not always necessarily true because with OCLL i personally think there's less recognition time actually necessary because with COLL you have a slight extra split second after recognizing the OCLL case narrowing down which COLL case you have. It's the opposite for me just because i stubbornly just kept doing it to the point it's more comfortable for me now to do that over OCLL, before i wondered if i should keep doing COLL or not but i decided since at this point it's impossible for me to finish F2L, look at the last layer, and NOT recognize the COLL, it would take me personally longer to ignore the COLL and just do an OLL+PLL.

Also the big plaace where a decision must be made is with Sune/Anti-Sune, because the majority of people that do COLL don't bother with those cases because Sune/A-Sune is just so fast and efficient anyway there's less of a gain with those cases over the others, and Sune/A-Sune COLL cases tend to be fairly awkward algs anyway that there's less gain there as well.

also, even as a COLL user, you still NEED to know all of your PLLs, unless you wanna do 2 look PLL on the random OLL skip (not that common, but still, OLL skips happen)

tl;dr (but you should still read anyway)
pick one, stick with it, PROFIT

 

[mDiPalma]

I do COLL+EPLL.

Don't be like me. Once you start COLL you can never go back. They're slower, more awkward, and pointless in comparison with the regular OLLs. I can J perm it up just as fast as I can Z perm, only it takes me twice as long to execute the stupid pi COLLs as doing the standard pi OLL.

COLL sucks for 2H and nobody should ever learn any of them ever.

In fact, if there's one thing I could go back and change in my entire experience with Rubik's Cube it would be to never have ever learned a single COLL algorithm/case.

Just use Winter Variation and pray for a PLL skip every 72 solves.


On the contrary, COLL is COOL for OH.

 

[BaMiao]

I do COLL+EPLL.

Don't be like me. Once you start COLL you can never go back. They're slower, more awkward, and pointless in comparison with the regular OLLs. I can J perm it up just as fast as I can Z perm, only it takes me twice as long to execute the stupid pi COLLs as doing the standard pi OLL.

COLL sucks for 2H and nobody should ever learn any of them ever.

In fact, if there's one thing I could go back and change in my entire experience with Rubik's Cube it would be to never have ever learned a single COLL algorithm/case.

Just use Winter Variation and pray for a PLL skip every 72 solves.


On the contrary, COLL is COOL for OH.

Just an honest question: Why can't you just go back to using OLL+PLL?

Also, I have to disagree on COLL for 2H. Just my experience, but a lot of PLLs are really awkward, and I've only become moderately fast at them because I've devoted a lot of practice and time searching for good ones. I find COLL algs much easier, and I've gotten fast with most without much work. There are still a couple I can't stand, but that may just be because I haven't searched for alternates. I also find COLL recognition to be much easier than PLL recognition.