What is the next best method for speedsolving?

[Filipe Teixeira]

cfop+ and roux+

(just the normal method with advanced techniques)

 

[efattah]

It makes sense that top cubers would try to preserve any already oriented edges because that just makes the solve easier. If they knew an alg that preserved part of EO and an alg that didn't, I'm sure every top cuber would use the alg that preserved EO because otherwise they are just undoing something that they would need to fix again for no benefit. Yiheng influences his next F2L pairs while solving one, is he no longer doing what we call CFOP because he is making his next step easier? It's not listed on the wiki either, but it doesn't change the method. It doesn't make sense that you're saying that just because the try to make the next step easier it is no longer ZB, of course they would want to preserve any EO that they have it would be counterproductive not to. Just because it doesn't fit the textbook definition of the method doesn't mean it is no longer the same method, and making the rest of the solve easier is actually better, if they can preserve or improve EO then they should do that but it doesn't change the method they use it just means they are using a more advanced and situational version that applies in the moment. They wouldn't choose to force a dot ZBLS when solving 3rd pair if they had the option to improve EO because it would make the solve worse. They would choose a different alg that orients more edges to make the ZBLS easier and if their pair solutions end up solving all of EO then that is still ZB, it just makes the rest of the solve better.

According to the wiki (which I say is wrong), ZB / ZBLS use 302 algorithms to orient edges while solving the last slot. I can say with fairly high certainty that none of the top solvers know those 302 algorithms and if they fail to get enough edges oriented by the last slot they will just use common OLL/PLL. So, by that definition, since they do not know most of those algorithms, they are not using ZB or ZBLS, which is what I have been saying all along, they are using CFOP with ZBLL.

 

[finger go brr]

obviously zz is the next best bc of how good it is for feet everyone knows this.

we really have to be more inclusive to feet mains smh my head

 

[AJT17]

I can say with fairly high certainty that none of the top solvers know those 302 algorithms and if they fail to get enough edges oriented by the last slot they will just use common OLL/PLL.

Tymon Kolasiński and Xuanyi Gang both know full ZB including ZBLS, if you look at any of their solves you can see that they are using specific algs for any ZBLS case. They do it almost automatically because they have learned all algs and they have practiced them enough to make it nearly automatic. Just look at some of their recent reconstructions, they use ZBLS and they are using specific algs for every case. Xuanyi never uses OLL-PLL in his solves, only getting PLL when he happens to also get all corners oriented but that's still a sub-set of ZBLL. Tymon rarely does OLL-PLL, but for the majority of his solves he does ZB using specific ZBLS algs and when he doesn't it is most likely because it would be slower like for his 3.41 at PSL where he had a 3 mover into the back left which would require a rotation to do ZBLS which he decided would be slower than doing the 3 mover and OLL-PLL which he got lucky with a skip, but it isn't because he couldn't orient enough edges so he didn't know the alg it was because it would be quicker to do a 3 mover instead. Even still there are more top cubers who use full ZB even full ZBLS and never do OLL-PLL like Qixian Cao and some others I am not familiar with, so saying that with fairly high certainty that no top cuber uses full ZBLS is just ignorant to the vast proof with videos and reconstructions of mostly Tymon and other top cubers using the full method. There are definitely some top cubers who do what you are describing, like Matty and both Luke's who know a lot of ZBLL's but maybe don't know full ZBLS, but outright saying that no top cuber knows ZBLS is just plain wrong.

https://reco.nz/

 

[Filipe Teixeira]

I try to keep edges oriented during F2L though.

 

[edward_9x]

For most of the past 9 years, the term ZB was generally referring to the ZZ method while using full ZBLL for the last layer.

Nah. ZBLS into ZBLL has always been "ZB" or "Z-B". ZZ with ZBLL is just "ZZ-a".

 

[Caleb Valenzuela]

cfop+ and roux+

(just the normal method with advanced techniques)

and insane lookahead

Nah. ZBLS into ZBLL has always been "ZB" or "Z-B". ZZ with ZBLL is just "ZZ-a".

i was about to say this

 

[SpeedCubingLord]

ZB, CFOP, and Roux have already proven to be viable methods for world-class solving. Now, what’s next? There are only few methods to my knowledge that have potential, but I think APB and ZZ are two methods that have potential. Leave your opinions below

I think ZZs time is over, it used to have way more users lol.

 

[PapaSmurf]

The next best method is CFOP.

 

[efattah]

Tymon Kolasiński and Xuanyi Gang both know full ZB including ZBLS, if you look at any of their solves you can see that they are using specific algs for any ZBLS case. They do it almost automatically because they have learned all algs and they have practiced them enough to make it nearly automatic. Just look at some of their recent reconstructions, they use ZBLS and they are using specific algs for every case. Xuanyi never uses OLL-PLL in his solves, only getting PLL when he happens to also get all corners oriented but that's still a sub-set of ZBLL. Tymon rarely does OLL-PLL, but for the majority of his solves he does ZB using specific ZBLS algs and when he doesn't it is most likely because it would be slower like for his 3.41 at PSL where he had a 3 mover into the back left which would require a rotation to do ZBLS which he decided would be slower than doing the 3 mover and OLL-PLL which he got lucky with a skip, but it isn't because he couldn't orient enough edges so he didn't know the alg it was because it would be quicker to do a 3 mover instead. Even still there are more top cubers who use full ZB even full ZBLS and never do OLL-PLL like Qixian Cao and some others I am not familiar with, so saying that with fairly high certainty that no top cuber uses full ZBLS is just ignorant to the vast proof with videos and reconstructions of mostly Tymon and other top cubers using the full method. There are definitely some top cubers who do what you are describing, like Matty and both Luke's who know a lot of ZBLL's but maybe don't know full ZBLS, but outright saying that no top cuber knows ZBLS is just plain wrong.

https://reco.nz/

So it sounds like there are maybe 4 or 5 cubers who know and use ZBLS. Considering that are 50 people that are truly top cubers, it still holds true that *almost* no top cuber actually uses full ZBLS even if they know full ZBLL.

 

[AJT17]

So it sounds like there are maybe 4 or 5 cubers who know and use ZBLS. Considering that are 50 people that are truly top cubers, it still holds true that *almost* no top cuber actually uses full ZBLS even if they know full ZBLL.

That isn't the original point you made. You originally said that ZB wasn't a top method because you argued that it was what is actually ZZ with ZBLL, which isn't the case, but now you're saying that most top cubers don't use it as your arguing point? I only listed off names I was 100% certain knew full ZB, there is probably over a dozen people who know full ZB in just the top 50, most being Chinese cubers which is why I'm not certain of what they know. Still, it is a very advanced method so of course it would be limited to a select few who actually decide to practice it and become better with it. Using full ZB is a lot more than just knowing the algs, you also need near perfect recognition to match and beat OLL-PLL which is why so few actually use it successfully. But that's not the point of this thread, which is asking for the next best method which is arguably ZB since it is still in its infancy in terms of optimised algs and maximum potential. We only got Tymon and Xuanyi, who are way above any other cuber using ZB currently, who have started using ZB to its full potential in just the past two years. Both of them using the full alg set as well as having nearly perfect recognition of each case, more so Xuanyi, which just goes to show the potential that ZB has in the future. Especially considering Xuanyi is only 7-8? years old, so his physical capabilities are still limited compared to what Yiheng who was similar to Xuanyi at that age. Once another few years pass by ZB will most likely be the dominant method in the top 100, with a minority of CFOP, Roux and miscellaneous other methods, because it will have more time put into generating the best algs for each case and improved recognition, whether that's a different recog method or by the cubers themselves.

 

[ruffleduck]

Let it be known: Economizing on a whole STEP in last layer is a BIG deal at the top level. Xuanyi has clean turning, but light years away from Yiheng's. (I have a solid amount of experience in the TPS-alg-spam industry and I cannot stress how unbelievable Yiheng [and Ruihang's] turning are. It isn't even close.) Yet, Xuanyi is able to keep up (#2 in the world at ~8 years old more than suffices to demonstrate this) because of the substantial ZB advantage. If ZB isn't the future, then cubing will remain stagnant at Yiheng's results. No one is going to do pure CFOP better than him. It just isn't really possible. He's virtually two-looking solves and has turning speed that is basically theoretically optimal. Only thing left is consistency, but after that CFOP will be at its end.

 

[Cubinginatree]

So it sounds like there are maybe 4 or 5 cubers who know and use ZBLS. Considering that are 50 people that are truly top cubers, it still holds true that *almost* no top cuber actually uses full ZBLS even if they know full ZBLL.

Sir, your a little out of the cubing loop lately. Tymon, Xuanyi and Qixian use ZB with extremely fast recognition and saying that almost no top cuber uses ZBLL is a complete lie. While some top cubers prefer to use edge control in their F2L instead of ZBLS plenty of cubers know the whole algset.

Let it be known: Economizing on a whole STEP in last layer is a BIG deal at the top level. Xuanyi has clean turning, but light years away from Yiheng's. (I have a solid amount of experience in the TPS-alg-spam industry and I cannot stress how unbelievable Yiheng [and Ruihang's] turning are. It isn't even close.) Yet, Xuanyi is able to keep up (#2 in the world at ~8 years old more than suffices to demonstrate this) because of the substantial ZB advantage. If ZB isn't the future, then cubing will remain stagnant at Yiheng's results. No one is going to do pure CFOP better than him. It just isn't really possible. He's virtually two-looking solves and has turning speed that is basically theoretically optimal. Only thing left is consistency, but after that CFOP will be at its end.

I don't think you could have worded that better.

 

[efattah]

Sir, your a little out of the cubing loop lately. Tymon, Xuanyi and Qixian use ZB with extremely fast recognition and saying that almost no top cuber uses ZBLL is a complete lie. While some top cubers prefer to use edge control in their F2L instead of ZBLS plenty of cubers know the whole algset.

I don't think you could have worded that better.

Hundreds of cubers know ZBLL, since 2016. I was not arguing that, I was arguing about how many know full ZBLS and actually use it. Even if a cuber does know full ZBLS they will use every attempt at edge control to prevent themselves from having to use a ZBLS algorithm on the last slot.

Regardless, the development of ZBLL in general may also mean that we might finally see a top solver use ZBRoux, which has faster ZBLL recognition than CFOP because you get to pre-look the ZBLL corner case while solving DF+DB+orient edges.

 

[ruffleduck]

Hundreds of cubers know ZBLL, since 2016. I was not arguing that, I was arguing about how many know full ZBLS and actually use it. Even if a cuber does know full ZBLS they will use every attempt at edge control to prevent themselves from having to use a ZBLS algorithm on the last slot.

Mid-F2L edge control is not very practical. CFOP's biggest trump IMO (over the more linear ZZ and Petrus/related methods) is the remarkable flexibility in F2L. (Primarily, pair order and slot solution variation.) EO control really, really compromises on this big-time, which is why there actually aren't any top cubers that I'm aware of who consistently worry about edge control. (Unless it's stupidly obvious, like cancelling into sledge in place of U R U' R')

At that point, you may as well use ZZ and blaze through <R,U>, <L,U> style and not worry about EO. (Yay, no ZBLS ) Surely manual EO in the cross (EOcross) step, planned and optimized during inspection, is better than manual EO in the F2L step, done on the fly. (Furthermore, empirically, we can say that movecounts are better in the former.)

ZBLS (the algorithmic approach) is quite good, and there's results to back it up.

Regardless, the development of ZBLL in general may also mean that we might finally see a top solver use ZBRoux, which has faster ZBLL recognition than CFOP because you get to pre-look the ZBLL corner case while solving DF+DB+orient edges.

I'm not gonna lie...I feel like after solving FB/SB, finishing with CMLL/L6E should be a given. CMLL is among the best algorithm sets in cubing, and L6E is just so, so good at high level. I'm not convinced ZBRoux is ever gonna click since it seems to "defeat" the purpose of doing FB/SB first in my view. Maybe I'm being too extreme, but that's just how I see it. (Also, Roux is the best method already [semi-/j]. Saying this as a ZZ enthusiast )

 

[efattah]

It is generally agreed the biggest drawback with Roux is the CMLL recognition time, which is worsened if you check the edge case to use a secondary algorithm to avoid a 6-flip in L6E. While of course good lookahead can reduce that recognition time, it is still an issue. Theoretically EODFDB in ZBRoux should have much faster recognition time (or zero), which then allows you to recognize the CMLL case (which is actually a ZBLL case) during the MU 2-gen EODFDB. So, at least on the surface, ZBRoux seems to eliminate the biggest problem in Roux, which is CMLL recognition time.
The only other obvious way to eliminate the CMLL recognition time is by advanced WaterRoux where the entire first block and corners are solved in the inspection, but that method has other issues.