[WCA Regulations 2012] Removal of Magic and Mastermagic

[Rpotts]

This decision should not be made on an emotional basis. Do what is correct.

Magic not being harmful is not a reason to have it as an event.

The problem is that it is not a puzzle.

The World Cube Association governs competitions for all puzzles labelled as Rubik puzzles, and all other puzzles that are played by twisting the sides, so-called 'twisty puzzles'... The goal of the World Cube Association is to have more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions. The spirit of the World Cube Association is that people from all over the world have fun together in a friendly atmosphere, help each other and behave sportsmanlike.

From The WCA Organisation

To me it seems like continuing to hold an event that thousands of people of all ages from all over the world participate in is affirming the goal and spirit of the WCA, dropping them because they don't fall under your definition of "puzzles" violates that code.

If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?

Because the goal of the WCA is to establish a friendly environment that allows all competitors to cultivate their skills. People are entitled to their opinion on what puzzles are fun and I approve of having a wide variety of puzzles and events that test varying skills.

I am for removal.

I'm fine with the argument that since Magic is already a popular event, removal should be justified by serious negatives. Here are two:

1. (in response to qqwref)
The very fact that the WCA recognizes rankings, awards, and World Champions for Magic may lead non-cubers to question the seriousness of the organization. To be sure, we'd need to ask some non-cubers, but I'm too embarrassed to.

I don't think that proving how serious we are to non-cubers is important. Many of us find Speedstacking to be unbelievably silly, even more so than magic, but the WSSA still takes it very seriously. To each their own.

2. At the top level, accurately judging the validity of a Magic solve finish is starting to become difficult (hands flat? palms or wrist?). The Board has already had to retroactively +2 record-setting attempts. With non-expert judges, there are likely competitors at all levels who regularly violate the rules without realizing it, which threatens the integrity of the whole event. On the other hand, requiring videos is not feasible.

This is easily the best argument for removal that I've heard, however, stopping/starting the timer and +2 issues exist with all puzzles, they are not unique to magic. Just because the +2 is so damning to overall solve time and the brevity of the solve makes it difficult to discern doesn't mean it's hopeless or impossible. (see: 2x2)

Most good points are already being brought up.
The first time I got involved at a competition was Stanford Winter 2008, and it was when I asked Tyson if we could hold Magics. He told me we could hold magic if I judged the event. So I did, and I've been following that model: Judge one responsible person, have them judge everyone else.

That is an excellent model, find the people who are best at magic/the most responsible judges and have them agree to judge, along with the competition organizer/delegate. If we are dealing with high level competitors the organizers should be prepared and willing to judge. Otherwise, just don't hold it if it's not feasible.

1) Magics have been around for a people. Quite a few people like them, and are used to them. If we're going to have such events at all, I think this is a much stronger reason for keeping events like magics, rather than, say, feet.
2) It's pretty fast and takes few resources to hold (1 judge, 1 station, ~30 minutes for a normal CA competition).
3) Even if it's just a dexterity puzzle, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. I think Magics are a reasonable choice for such events.

I agree, just because it's not the most challenging or stimulating puzzle doesn't give us right to withhold it from those who enjoy it.

I'm not sure if I would be in favor of adding magics if they weren't events right now, but I think they're worth keeping.

EDIT: Just to clarify, these points are my personal opinion. Here I'm just stating the points that I find personally most relevant.

I'm certain that if there was no competitor base for magic, and it was on the table to be added, I would certainly argue against it, but since it's already here, and there are thousands of competitors that would attend competitions for it, there is no reason to drop it.

Note : I do not own magics nor have I ever solved one, I don't like them and have no interest in them, I simply don't see the WCA as my sandbox to legislate by my whims.

 

[PatrickJameson]

Hypothetical scenario:

I now give you the power to choose between two events. The event you choose will continue to be an official cubing event for the rest of the existence of cubing (that is, it would continue beyond the existence of the WCA, if that were to crumble), and the other event will never be. The two events you must choose between are magic (as it is currently) or [insert any other puzzle of your choice here].

Feet.

I am against the removal. Magics have mainly been a competition of dexterity and finger speed, which I don't see as something bad as far as rationalizing having this event goes.

Dene's points, sans the printing point, seem to have just been lack of ability to handle hosting Magics(no offense). Your stubbornness could easily be used to prevent people from fooling around, competing later on in the competition, etc. Bob has enacted a strict one practice solve per person per event rule. Anything after that is official, no exceptions.

[Plus all the points that have made prior, of course]

Of course the event is silly, but I think the reasons to keep it out-weigh the reasons not to.

 

[Thompson]

Keep magic. It's a Rubik's brand puzzle that lots of people enjoy. We should focus on building to the community by adding more events such as skewb, and stop destroying it by removing events a lot of people love.

 

[RyanReese09]

Ok, serious answer;

No one competes in magic without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle. You are simply performing an action you memorised.

I learned minutes before doing my official solves. I had to work it out mid solve due to me forgetting what to do. Speak for yourself. You can even see the improvement I had during my first solves of magic.

 

[Cheese11]

Keep magic. It's a Rubik's brand puzzle that lots of people enjoy. We should focus on building to the community by adding more events such as skewb, and stop destroying it by removing events a lot of people love.

But really, when only a handful of people love it, why keep it? Get rid of it and please tons of other people.

 

[Robocopter87]

You failed to provide a single good reason why we should keep magic as an official event.

I clearly stated it was a test of dexterity. Its a fun Puzzle. People enjoy it. This is competing for fun. Lots of people do it. Its just pooping on the party if you are like, "Pfft, not a real puzzle"

Besides, this doesn't matter.

The point is, its already an event. That's not what we are arguing. We are arguing whether it should remain an event.

However, since its already an event. Why change it?

Now, if we were to go into the discussion based upon the judging of the event, which apparently seems to been having trouble with clear cut solves, then I would be more willing to agree to remove. However, if that were the case I would only agree after all alternatives to the current had been viewed and none would solve the problem (Obviously loose definition of ALL).

Why is the fact that since the magic can be solved using the same method over and over make it not event worthy? The 3x3 can be solved by the same method over and over. Yes there is varieties of methods but so is there for the Magic.

All in all, is this really such a big deal as to remove the event?

 

[Robocopter87]

But really, when only a handful of people love it, why keep it? Get rid of it and please tons of other people.

Whoa whoa whoa, "Handful of people"? Generalize much?

 

[Kian]

Hypothetical scenario:

I now give you the power to choose between two events. The event you choose will continue to be an official cubing event for the rest of the existence of cubing (that is, it would continue beyond the existence of the WCA, if that were to crumble), and the other event will never be. The two events you must choose between are magic (as it is currently) or [insert any other puzzle of your choice here].


What I am trying to illustrate, and perhaps not succeeding so well in doing, is that you've given no reason for keeping magic, so why not something else? I see no good reason to prevent competitions from hosting helicube as an official event, except for the fact that helicube is not an official event.

I completely support adding other events that are popular and fun for people. I wouldn't hold magic or master magic at any tournament I helped organized (Nats notwithstanding, of course), but I really do not see the benefit of removing it as an event. Who is that helping?

Also, I just think that such a popular event that a lot of people like should continued to be official. I don't enjoy it but I don't want to keep others from doing the same and being able to do so in a competitive environment.

 

[Dene]

I clearly stated it was a test of dexterity. Its a fun Puzzle. People enjoy it. This is competing for fun. Lots of people do it. Its just pooping on the party if you are like, "Pfft, not a real puzzle"

None of those are good reasons, and if you think they are, either way they all apply to every other puzzle other than "lots of people do it", which is definitely not a good reason for doing anything.

The point is, its already an event. That's not what we are arguing. We are arguing whether it should remain an event.

I don't know why you said this, it doesn't contradict anything I've said at the very least. And I have argued for why I think it should be removed, and I asked you to provide a defense of why it should remain an event. Thus far you have failed (maybe I too have failed in my reasons for why it should be removed, but that is irrelevant).

However, since its already an event. Why change it?

For the reasons that have been provided so far in this thread.

Why is the fact that since the magic can be solved using the same method over and over make it not event worthy? The 3x3 can be solved by the same method over and over. Yes there is varieties of methods but so is there for the Magic.

Ignoring the fact that your question only addresses one issue brought up with magic, I should point out that you have an inaccurate understanding of that particular issue. It's not that it's the same method used over and over. It's the fact that it is exactly the same thing done over and over. The exact same thing. No other official event requires this of competitors. And I guess you could solve magics a different way, but you'd be wasting your time, as you'd be doing it a worse way and seeing as magic is only a challenge of who can pick it up and slam it down the fastest, it seems like a bad idea to use a method that isn't the best one.

All in all, is this really such a big deal as to remove the event?

Yes it is. Hence this thread.

I completely support adding other events that are popular and fun for people. I wouldn't hold magic or master magic at any tournament I helped organized (Nats notwithstanding, of course), but I really do not see the benefit of removing it as an event. Who is that helping?

Also, I just think that such a popular event that a lot of people like should continued to be official. I don't enjoy it but I don't want to keep others from doing the same and being able to do so in a competitive environment.

But if you had a choice you would get rid of magic?

It's helping a lot of people, and the cubing community in general, by removing a pointless event that makes us look like a joke, and wastes a lot of time.

 

[thackernerd]

I don't think we should get rid of it at all, I just taught my brother so he could do something at the next comp he has to come to with me.

 

[iEnjoyCubing]

But really, when only a handful of people love it, why keep it? Get rid of it and please tons of other people.

So you define a handful as 3730 people? That's over TWICE the amount Megaminx has.

My two cents:

To address the "it makes cubing look silly" issue; from what I experienced it already is somewhat silly. Sure, people around me think it's impressive that I can solve cubes/magic/etc, but beyond that when I tell them it is a true hobby they think "Seriously? This guy sits and plays with Rubik's cubes during his free time?" I don't really think it ever will be taken 100% seriously. Also, from my experiences people are most impressed by TPS, which in magic is extremely high (technically not "TPS", but fast folds/etc). If anything, to a non-cuber solving a magic in less than 2 seconds would look impressive to a non cuber.

To address the hindrance in competitions issue, I really think it depends on the organizer/competition. In all of the competitions I have been to, magic/master magic have been successfully and timely incorporated into the schedule. It didn't back anything up (I have not organized, but this is just what I've observed). The only real issue at hand here (in my opinion) is the judging/+2 problem. If non cubers/inexperience cubers are judging, there are times when solves that should have been a +2 weren't counted as such. The only real solution is to educate judges further and be slightly more selective when picking judges (then again, this introduces a time issue).

Just bringing up some of my personally relevant opinions.

 

[Kian]

But if you had a choice you would get rid of magic?

It's helping a lot of people, and the cubing community in general, by removing a pointless event that makes us look like a joke, and wastes a lot of time.

I don't enjoy always being the person to judge it because we realize that you need experienced judges to do it, and I don't think it's much of a fun event. Its removal would make my life easier. However, I do know that a lot of people think it's fun and I really don't want to take that away from people without a really, really good reason. I do think we're taking ourselves a bit too seriously when we worry a lot about what people outside the community might think. In my opinion, that is a bad reason to make a change.

Macky's point that judging is a concern is a good one, but I think that just requires organizers to either have good, experienced judges (like on the east coast in the US where it is basically me and Bob judging everyone) or not hold the event. That should be their responsibility and if they follow that the point is no longer an issue.

Edit: In regard to your question, sure. If i was forced to pick between Magic or Helicube being an event I think I would choose Helicube b/c it's something I might actually enjoy doing and it's not so much of a hassle. That, however, is more selfish than I'd like to believe I would be, given how many people like Magic.

 

[Bob]

Plenty to be said about magics, but first this. Among those opposed to magics as official events are THE Bob Burton, former world record holder, and Yuxuan Wang, current world record holder.

No no, I just think that the puzzle should be scrambled to a random state and the competitor must bring it to the solved state.

 

[Robocopter87]

Dene, it seems you are the one lacking in reason, I stated my reasons. You simply called them not good. You never gave any reason as to why getting rid of the event would benefit others. You simply rode on "the reasons provided so far in this thread". You never explained why my reasons were invalid.

Dene, Lets erase everything here and I will ask you a simple question. Actually two.

1. Why do you want to remove Magic and/Master Magic?
2. Is there a benefit from removing it?

I understand why you don't consider it a puzzle. I really do. So please, answer my questions(also, I have no intention of being mean, I simply am debating, sorry for any offense)

 

[Dene]

given how many people like Magic.

Do they really though? Sure, many people have competed in it, but do they like it? I don't believe we have any evidence for such a claim.

I understand why you don't consider it a puzzle. I really do. So please, answer my questions(also, I have no intention of being mean, I simply am debating, sorry for any offense)

Oh of course, no offense taken, this is all about debating for our opinions. (I should point out I do in fact think that in general magic and master magic are twisty puzzles).

Dene, it seems you are the one lacking in reason, I stated my reasons. You simply called them not good. You never gave any reason as to why getting rid of the event would benefit others. You simply rode on "the reasons provided so far in this thread". You never explained why my reasons were invalid.

I think I did explain why they were invalid, namely, that they all apply to any puzzle. Applying them to magic doesn't differentiate it from the bunch.

1. Why do you want to remove Magic and/Master Magic?
2. Is there a benefit from removing it?

1.

Firstly, there is the extra time taken to print and write up scorecards for bulks of people. Secondly, there is the expense of printing off extra certificates, and possibly also prizes. Thirdly, there is the time they waste at competitions. Even though you can simply ask people to pair up and go, this tends to be a process that ends up being drawn out way further than necessary, with people playing around, taking too long to warm up (despite me always giving clear instructions that there will be no warm ups), and magics breaking. Fourthly, there is the problem with accurate judging, which has already been mentioned; it's so difficult to judge magic, and I can almost guarantee that there have been so many magic solves performed in Australia that should have received penalties but didn't due to the difficulty of judging the event and me or Tim not being informed of discretions. Fifthly, in the case where magics are not held (I should point out that I always object to the inclusion of magics in our competitions) there is usually a group of people that harrass the organisers to hold it, which is rather annoying (this harrassment actually seems to have disappeared from Australian competitions, or at least to my awareness, I guess because people have given up on my stubbornness, woot).

Also: The way magics are done in the WCA removes the puzzle aspect of the event, therefore they are not puzzles at all in the context of a WCA competition; it is really just a contest of who can pick up and put down the magic the fastest; due to these problems both magic and master magic provide a strong potential for great ridicule to be brought upon the WCA.

2. All of these problems would be gone.

 

[Tim Major]

Do they really though? Sure, many people have competed in it, but do they like it? I don't believe we have any evidence for such a claim.

When I was at Harvard there were 5 or 6 10-11 years olds spazzing before magic, getting psyched. It was kind of funny, but magic was their favourite events so...

 

[TimMc]

Is anyone strongly against removing these events? If so, why?

It should be obvious why these events should be removed.

Do not discuss the removal of any other events in this thread.

I'd love to contribute to this discussion but I'd like to ask that you present a case for removing these events rather than putting everyone in a defensive position (i.e. trolling).

Your initial post contributes absolutely nothing in favour of removing Magic and Master Magic and just seems to have been spawned out of a Skewb related discussion.

Tim.

 

[ASH]

I totally support this proposal.

1. It is no mental challange (no puzzle), in the way we do it in comps
2. I would save a little time (at comps) which we could use for an other "simple PUZZLE"

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

I would like to keep magic and master magic in comps for the following reasons:
1. Many people find it fun, those that don't usually dont compete (no-one is forcing you to do every single event).
2. In the comps I've been to, they have been held as the first event in the competition, this allows for people who are running late to arrive, and for people to have a chance to warm up for other events later on.
3. It doesn't take large amounts of time, since most people can solve both the puzzles in uner 15 seconds, an average can take about 1-2 minutes, when there are multiple stations, this is not much time pressure on the competition.
4. It gives some younger competitiors something to do, since some wont have the patience/wont want to learn how to solve a 3x3 or other events.

 

[Kirjava]

(You failed to explain your reasoning Kir)

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684169&viewfull=1#post684169
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684172&viewfull=1#post684172
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684183&viewfull=1#post684183
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684192&viewfull=1#post684192
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684204&viewfull=1#post684204
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684219&viewfull=1#post684219
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...nd-Mastermagic&p=684241&viewfull=1#post684241

The point is, its already an event. That's not what we are arguing. We are arguing whether it should remain an event.

However, since its already an event. Why change it?

"We should keep slavery because it already exists"

I'd love to contribute to this discussion but I'd like to ask that you present a case for removing these events rather than putting everyone in a defensive position (i.e. trolling).

You need to read this;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Your initial post contributes absolutely nothing in favour of removing Magic and Master Magic and just seems to have been spawned out of a Skewb related discussion.

See above.