[WCA Regulations 2012] Removal of Magic and Mastermagic

[Cubenovice]

I vote for removal of these events -> there's nothing to "solve", it is just repeating the exact same movement every time.

Regarding the comments about giving the younger kids someting to do at a comp: just teach them 2x2x2 or 3x3x3.
As of the age of 5 I see no reason why you could not learn to solve a 3x3x3.

You'll get more bang for your buck too: you'll spend more time solving a 3x3x3x than a magic

 

[da25centz]

I vote for removal of these events -> there's nothing to "solve", it is just repeating the exact same movement every time.

Regarding the comments about giving the younger kids someting to do at a comp: just teach them 2x2x2 or 3x3x3.
As of the age of 5 I see no reason why you could not learn to solve a 3x3x3.

You'll get more bang for your buck too: you'll spend more time solving a 3x3x3x than a magic

I think if we want to get kids interested in cubing start them off with something like 2x2. Magic is really unrelated to the rest of speedcubing due to the fact that it is simply memorizing a motion and repeating it. It is purely a dexterity event, where the rest of the speedcubing events involve at least some mental work

 

[Godmil]

I don't have a stong opinion one way or the other, but I find it interesting that so many people seem to think that 'day care' should be officially recognised by the WCA.

 

[Specs112]

I don't have a stong opinion one way or the other, but I find it interesting that so many people seem to think that 'day care' should be officially recognised by the WCA.

Heh, yeah, the day care aspect, as you put it, is one of the reasons that I oppose this.

But I'm an elitist who hates kids and non-cubers.

 

[Escher]

Personally I think we should replace it with 1x1x3.

 

[Kirjava]

Personally I think we should replace it with 1x1x3.

I'd be down with that

 

[Cheese11]

So you define a handful as 3730 people? That's over TWICE the amount Megaminx has.

But do 3730 LOVE it? I think not. Lots of people compete in magic even though they don't like it.

 

[~Adam~]

[fact]If they were released today they would never become events[/fact]

I feel that no WCA events should ever be removed because they were made an event for a reason.

It was made by Rubik's is the reason.
WCA ≠ World Rubik's Products Association

People would have a lot of fun at an orgy at a competition, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

I was kinda at the pub for the mystery events at the UK Open '11. Is this a 'bad idea' from personal experience?

 

[Pedro]

I agree with Macky here.
Being an organizer and delegate, magic is one of the most troublesome events to hold, since people don't know how to judge it (even I did it wrong sometimes in the past ). And as I want things to be done properly, it's usually me and another delegate judging everyone.

Well, in our last big competition, we had about 120 people. 16 participated in the magic event. We had to call one by one and sometimes people are lazy/not paying attention/doing something else, and won't come to compete.
Also, little kids like to warm up before the solves, some like to borrow other people's magic, break strings and whatever. All that is taking my precious competition time...

You could say "just don't hold it". Yeah, I could do that, but people would be upset. Upset with me, because I am mean and don't want to hold the simplest-dumbest "event".

Others have adressed the point that it's not a real puzzle, it's just doing the same moves every time. I also think an important argument is that you're allowed to do warm up solves before the official ones. Sure, people do 3x3 or other puzzles solves while they wait for the cube to be scrambled. But they don't get to choose what cube is the one which will count.

To those saying feet is also pointless: I think solving a rubik's cube (which is many many more times challenging than a magic) with your feet is much more impressing than doing the magic. So if I had to choose, I'd remove the magic. Also, if it were invented today, it wouldn't become official.

Someone said speedstacking is also dumb. So if they're doing something dumb, should we do it too?

 

[Tim Reynolds]

I've frequently not held magics at MIT competitions because I don't want to deal with it. It's probably the event we get the most frequent requests for (of the events we don't hold). I'm not going to quantify that statement, but yes, people do like it.

As Kian said, Pedro's problem can be fixed by having more strict organizing policies. If you're not ready to compete when called, the WCA regulations say you can be disqualified. We've been enforcing that, and magic is very efficient to run as a result.

 

[cmhardw]

I don't like this argument that "Magic is silly" and "Magic makes us look bad/not respectable/etc. to non-cubers"

From my experience, non-cubers consider the 15 section inspection time to be far worse than the magic events as a whole. Inspection without being timed is clearly "cheating" to at least some non-cubers. I've heard this more than once from parents of competitors at competitions I have organized.

If we are to begin changing regulations for the reason that "this regulation/event/etc. is considered silly to non-cubers" or "this regulation/event/etc. makes cubing appear not respectable to non-cubers" then those people who are using this as a reason should be equally, if not more so, upset at the fact that we have a 15 second inspection rule for all speedsolving events.

To those using the "this is silly" argument as a reason to remove magic, please either stop using this as a reason, or begin a campaign to remove the 15 second inspection with just as much earnestness as your campaign to remove the Magic and Master Magic events.

Please.

P.S. If it's not already clear, this isn't me saying that magics should not be removed. This post is me saying that I do not find the "this event is silly" reason valid when it is only used for the Magic events. Unless the "change/remove this regulation because it is silly/not respectable/bothersome to non-cubers" rule is used across all events, then I think it is poor form to argue this only for removal of the Magic events. Non-cubers have other issues with how we do things in our sport/hobby/whatever we do is supposed to be called. Don't just single out Magics if your reasoning is that non-cubers find the event silly. Non-cubers also find other things that we do to be silly.

 

[Kirjava]

I wouldn't equate inspection and magic as a whole to being the same thing. It would be much much harder to remove inspection time than it would be to remove magic.

It's less 'Magic is silly' and more 'Magic is grouped with speedcubing and we no longer want that association'.

I'm happy to give up this argument though, there are other perfectly valid reasons for removing Magic.

 

[cmhardw]

... there are other perfectly valid reasons for removing Magic.

In my opinion, there have only been 2 valid reasons for removing the magic events presented in this entire thread.

1) At least some organizers find Magic to be a difficult event to organize, and often choose not to organize it.
2) At the very top level of magic solvers, it is possible that DNF solves are being counted as good simply because the solve happens faster than the judge's eyes can follow. This problem can only be solved with the introduction of video analysis to verify that all solves are good. This is highly unrealistic for implementation in competitions as things stand now.

I have yet to see any other valid reason that the magic events should be removed presented in this thread, to be perfectly honest. I think these two reasons alone are grounds enough to remove magic, if the WCA board agrees that these are, together, unacceptable.

I say this reluctantly, as I for one do not want the magic events to be removed. However, since organizers seem to find it difficult, and since video analysis is far beyond the realm of possibility, it seems that magics should probably be removed.

 

[Benyó]

why would it be obvious? i can't see the point
magics aren't really about pure speed as many people think. they are like the faster athletic or swimming events. many people have the skill to be a world champion/world record holder/whatever but only a few are able to do their best on competition, especially in the big comp's final. that's why i think Máté is one of the best cubers ever: he hasn't messed up a bigcomp final for 5 years, even if many other cubers have quite the same general average as he at home. other example: Marcin Jakubowski is extremely fast in magic, but his competition performance is usually pathetic.
in bigcubes or mega it's usually a huge surprise if not the fastest cuber wins but the 2nd best, and it is almost impossible that the 3rd best could be the winner because the differences are so huge. but in magics there are about 10 or 15 quite equally fast cuber and the mentally strongest will win.
i know you think doing the same moves is boring but i in my opinion it's one of the most interesting events both for the public (i mean people who understand it maybe root for somebody but do not compete) and the competitors. and i meant event, not puzzle.
and they don't take too much time.
so, what are your points of argument?

 

[cmhardw]

...that's why i think Máté is one of the best cubers ever: he hasn't messed up a bigcomp final for 5 years, even if many other cubers have quite the same general average as he at home.

I completely agree, and I think this is a wonderful reason why magics should be kept. Mate has clearly shown that winning a round in magic is not simply "whichever sap didn't screw up", and that competitions can be repeatedly won on skill and practice in the event.

As for reasons why magic should be removed, see my most recent post above. Those are at least two reasons that need to be dealt with if magics are not to be removed, in my opinion.

 

[Kirjava]

In my opinion, there have only been 2 valid reasons for removing the magic events presented in this entire thread.

I disagree about the number, but am happy you see some of the problems we have with the event as it is.

 

[DavidWoner]

If we are to begin changing regulations for the reason that "this regulation/event/etc. is considered silly to non-cubers" or "this regulation/event/etc. makes cubing appear not respectable to non-cubers" then those people who are using this as a reason should be equally, if not more so, upset at the fact that we have a 15 second inspection rule for all speedsolving events.

Umm from what I can tell the argument is that it makes cubing non-respectable to non-cubers AND cubers alike. That is a much more serious issue.

I agree with that, but not for the reasons others have stated. I don't really care that it is "not really a puzzle" and is only a test of dexterity and nerves. I think steeple chase is a ridiculous event, but that doesn't mean I lose any respect for track and field organizations that decide to have it.

However, I do think it's embarrassing to hold an event when we are completely incapable of enforcing the regulations we set forth. We have been revising the solved/+2/DNF rules for years and still haven't found something that applies clearly in all situations, and that's just once the attempt is done. We have no way of checking hand position or whether or not someone was touching the puzzle, etc. We are still many many years away from being able to have video equipment at all competitions (if we ever reach that point), but we are long past the point where it is needed.

Yes, removal of magics may go against the spirit of fun, but I think the spirit of fairness is far more important.

 

[ASH]

In my opinion, there have only been 2 valid reasons for removing the magic events presented in this entire thread.

Do you really not see the "missing mental challenge"-point?

Isn't Speedcubing some kind of using a physical and a mental skill at the same time?

If you agree to this there is no other way than to agree with:
Speedcubing is to Magic/MMagic (in the competitive way) as Chess boxing is to boxing;
a different kind of "sport".

(I didn't make that up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing )

 

[Benyó]

Do you really not see the "missing mental challenge"-point?

Isn't Speedcubing some kind of using a physical and a mental skill at the same time?

If you agree to this there is no other way than to agree with:
Speedcubing is to Magic/MMagic (in the competitive way) as Chess boxing is to boxing;
a different kind of "sport".

(I didn't make that up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing )

fmc misses the "speed chanllenge", which is actually included in the name, not like "mental challenge"

 

[cmhardw]

Do you really not see the "missing mental challenge"-point?

Isn't Speedcubing some kind of using a physical and a mental skill at the same time?

If you agree to this there is no other way than to agree with:
Speedcubing is to Magic/MMagic (in the competitive way) as Chess boxing is to boxing;
a different kind of "sport".

(I didn't make that up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_boxing )

For the most part your analogy makes sense. If we accept speedcubing as a mixture of both mental and physical prowess let's say, then speedcubing is to magic as chess/boxing is to boxing. I'm sure there is more strategy involved in Boxing than there is in Magic, so this analogy might not work completely, but it sends essentially the same message.

However, I don't think that this analogy holding true is a valid enough reason to possibly justify the removal of magic as an event.

The two reasons I mentioned in a previous post, I believe, are valid enough reasons to possibly justify the removal of magic as an event. I don't think us saying that Magic is not enough a "mental sport" allows us to go against these statements:

The goal of the World Cube Association is to have

more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions.

The spirit of the World Cube Association is that

people from all over the world have fun together in a friendly atmosphere, help each other and behave sportsmanlike.

Magic is fun, and it brings more people to competitions. This is in the spirit of what the WCA is trying to do.

As I see it, the more serious problems are that Magic is difficult for organizers to hold (as has been stated by some organizers), and that it's difficult to fairly judge the world class people accurately. Those last two points, I feel, are far more valid reasons to use if you want to remove magic as an event than the argument that they are not in the spirit of mental challenges to the same extent as solving a 3x3x3 is.