[WCA Regulations 2012] Removal of Magic and Mastermagic

[uberCuber]

I really don't understand why everybody think's these events should be removed.

Maybe because not everyone does.

Yea, obviously its easy, and you are doing the same thing every time, but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too.

Except not. Nearly every single solve you will ever do on a cube (or pyraminx, megaminx, etc.) will be different in some way. You are not doing the same thing every time in the sense that you are with magic.

Just please do not remove them.

This was the most convincing part of the whole post.

 

[chrissyD]

but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too. And skill is required to get FAST times. Just please do not remove them.

I'm also pretty sure I never do the same thing on my 2x2 as my 4x4 and they are both cubic.

A 3x3 has so many ways in which it can be solved. The magic only has a few very easy solutions. We may as well replace magic with speed origami crane making or ball in a cup. They are all just as pointless and easy.

 

[Kirjava]

^ cool. Now like Mitch said, magics aren't hurting anyone. So why remove them?

Please read the thread before posting in it.

 

[macky]

I am for removal.

I'm fine with the argument that since Magic is already a popular event, removal should be justified by serious negatives. Here are two:

1. (in response to qqwref)
The very fact that the WCA recognizes rankings, awards, and World Champions for Magic may lead non-cubers to question the seriousness of the organization. To be sure, we'd need to ask some non-cubers, but I'm too embarrassed to.

2.
At the top level, accurately judging the validity of a Magic solve finish is starting to become difficult (hands flat? palms or wrist?). The Board has already had to retroactively +2 record-setting attempts. With non-expert judges, there are likely competitors at all levels who regularly violate the rules without realizing it, which threatens the integrity of the whole event. On the other hand, requiring videos is not feasible.

[edit: moved up from below]
Discussion along the line of "is Magic a puzzle?" has already been played out on a very superficial level. Please contribute something meaningful or GTFO.

 

[ben1996123]

There is no reason. It doesn't take long and it's a good warm up event. Some people like it a lot. If you don't like it, don't compete in it.

 

[cmhardw]

I am for removal.

I'm fine with the argument that since Magic is already a popular event, removal should be justified by serious negatives. Here are two:

...

2.
At the top level, accurately judging the validity of a Magic solve finish is starting to become difficult (hands flat? palms or wrist?). The Board has already had to retroactively +2 record-setting attempts. With non-expert judges, there are likely competitors at all levels who regularly violate the rules without realizing it, which threatens the integrity of the whole event. On the other hand, requiring videos is not feasible.

This last one is a very good point. Even sport stacking requires video analysis of ALL attempts at the top level. At the World Sport Stacking competition they film all attempts in the final round, and all records are "provisional" until verified by video analysis.

For the most part I am against the removal of magics, but this is a very damning piece of evidence that Macky brings up.

 

[Lucas Garron]

Most good points are already being brought up.
The first time I got involved at a competition was Stanford Winter 2008, and it was when I asked Tyson if we could hold Magics. He told me we could hold magic if I judged the event. So I did, and I've been following that model: Judge one responsible person, have them judge everyone else.

1) Magics have been around for a people. Quite a few people like them, and are used to them. If we're going to have such events at all, I think this is a much stronger reason for keeping events like magics, rather than, say, feet.
2) It's pretty fast and takes few resources to hold (1 judge, 1 station, ~30 minutes for a normal CA competition).
3) Even if it's just a dexterity puzzle, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. I think Magics are a reasonable choice for such events.

I'm not sure if I would be in favor of adding magics if they weren't events right now, but I think they're worth keeping.

EDIT: Just to clarify, these points are my personal opinion. Here I'm just stating the points that I find personally most relevant.

 

[keyan]

To those saying things along the lines of "it doesn't hurt anything, so why remove it", magic takes that most precious to a competition, time.

It's the hardest event to judge. Hosting the Human Rights Day competition in Beijing last weekend, we had non-cubers for judges. For all other events, it was enough to tell them how the process worked, tell them to call over a delegate if there is any confusion, and just walk around during the competition checking that everything is going right. But for magic, we (organizers) did the judging ourselves. The event just goes too fast to reliably judge. Tiny things (touching the puzzle before/after solving, hand position when stopping the timer) become hugely important at this speed. And the +2 state is a lot harder to judge than other puzzles. For a 3x3 you compare against the next layer. On magic, you're comparing against air.

There's also the problem of a magic that lands vertically, lands on the timer itself, lands on the competitor's hand.

Also, being a 'quick event that doesn't take much time', magic is the only event where we explicitly give the competitor time to 'warm up' before solving. The time adds up.

 

[StachuK1992]

Is someone forcing you to host Magic?

 

[PhillipEspinoza]

What about the idea of making it an actual "mixed" state instead of the same beginning state each time? At least then it would be more than just one "algorithm" which seems to be the major complaint against it's recognition as a WCA event.

 

[Kirjava]

What about the idea of making it an actual "mixed" state instead of the same beginning state each time? At least then it would be more than just one "algorithm" which seems to be the major complaint against it's recognition as a WCA event.

Then you'd have to learn god's alg for magic

 

[asportking]

I don't like magic/master magic, but like everyone else has said, it's good for younger people who can't solve a cube. They don't really do much harm, but if WCA got to the point where there were too many events and some had to be cut, I think these two would be the first to go.

 

[cityzach]

Also, being a 'quick event that doesn't take much time', magic is the only event where we explicitly give the competitor time to 'warm up' before solving. The time adds up.

each competitor only receives ONE practice solve. It hardly takes up anymore time at all.

 

[Dene]

In reply to Chris:

I don't personally organise competitions, although I live with Tim McMahon who organises all of the competitions over here, and I have worked with him a fair bit in his preparations for most of the competitions, and on the day of the competition I am always the person who takes control and manages everything, organising helpers, getting the next event running, etc. etc.

I am for the removal of magic and master magic. Mainly my reason is that I believe the events are stupid and pointless. I don't see any need to bring up more specific reasons, as they've all been said before. But from the perspective of an organiser, there are several reasons why magics become a hinderance. Firstly, there is the extra time taken to print and write up scorecards for bulks of people. Secondly, there is the expense of printing off extra certificates, and possibly also prizes. Thirdly, there is the time they waste at competitions. Even though you can simply ask people to pair up and go, this tends to be a process that ends up being drawn out way further than necessary, with people playing around, taking too long to warm up (despite me always giving clear instructions that there will be no warm ups), and magics breaking. Fourthly, there is the problem with accurate judging, which has already been mentioned; it's so difficult to judge magic, and I can almost guarantee that there have been so many magic solves performed in Australia that should have received penalties but didn't due to the difficulty of judging the event and me or Tim not being informed of discretions. Fifthly, in the case where magics are not held (I should point out that I always object to the inclusion of magics in our competitions) there is usually a group of people that harrass the organisers to hold it, which is rather annoying (this harrassment actually seems to have disappeared from Australian competitions, or at least to my awareness, I guess because people have given up on my stubbornness, woot).

To conclude: magic and master magic are both stupid events that cause a hinderance to organisers.

 

[Kian]

I have never competed in magic or master magic, I don't like magic or master magic, and I think they are silly events. That being said I see no good reason to keep competitions from holding it as an event if they so choose.

 

[Dene]

I have never competed in magic or master magic, I don't like magic or master magic, and I think they are silly events. That being said I see no good reason to keep competitions from holding it as an event if they so choose.

Hypothetical scenario:

I now give you the power to choose between two events. The event you choose will continue to be an official cubing event for the rest of the existence of cubing (that is, it would continue beyond the existence of the WCA, if that were to crumble), and the other event will never be. The two events you must choose between are magic (as it is currently) or [insert any other puzzle of your choice here].


What I am trying to illustrate, and perhaps not succeeding so well in doing, is that you've given no reason for keeping magic, so why not something else? I see no good reason to prevent competitions from hosting helicube as an official event, except for the fact that helicube is not an official event.

 

[Cheese11]

I think rPotts said at the beginning of the thread that magic was normally held over lunch break.
I think keeping magic and only having it during lunch would be fine.

 

[Dene]

I think rPotts said at the beginning of the thread that magic was normally held over lunch break.
I think keeping magic and only having it during lunch would be fine.

That is not what he said, and it is not always a practical choice. Because many competitors will compete in magic, lunch won't really start until after magic has been completed anyway, so really all you do is shorten lunch for everyone.

 

[TheMachanga]

We were talking about how skewb will just become a competition of who can start and stop the timer fastest (lol no), but magic literately is this. Any puzzle where people can average under 1 second ON A STACKMAT is just ridiculous.

 

[Robocopter87]

Alright, I don't understand the issue here... (You failed to explain your reasoning Kir)

So, is the problem that:

a) You don't believe its a puzzle?
b) You don't believe that the puzzle should be classified as cube?
c) You don't lie magic?

If you dislike Magic, then just don't compete. A lot of others find it fun. personally I enjoy flipping the piece of plastic around for fun, its entertaining and its testing my dexterity. Its fun to be able to solve.

Isn't this what this is all about, isn't cubing supposed to be a hobby for entertainment? Isn't cubing supposed to test your knowledge and a few other characteristics(including Dexterity)?

I'm sorry to burst anybody's bubbles. But when we break it down to bare minimums we find that the Rubik's Cube is in fact just a toy. Yes, it is puzzling. But nonetheless a toy.

Magic is also just a toy, is it as challenging as a 3x3? Heck no. The thing is so easy to solve, they should have competitions on how quick people can learn them.

But its fun, and that's what this is about. If you don't like it, then you really should just not compete. A lot of people really enjoy Magic, myself included.

*Failed to explain your reasoning in the OP, that is.