[Help Thread] FMC Discussion

[5BLD]

Have F2L in 18 - Will work on completing later but may yet take it back to F2L-1 for continuation or looking at adding an insert...

Spoiler

On Inverse
B' F' U' F // 2x2x1
Switch to Normal
Premoves F' U F B
D F U2 // 2x2x2
B2 D B D // 3x2x2
B' R B2 R2 B // F2L-1
R B // Pseudo 3x2x1 - Requires B' Premove for F2l making Premoves B' F' U F B

I think you might have mixed up regular and inverse...

 

[Selkie]

I think you might have mixed up regular and inverse...

Thanks, I certainly did.

Read as "On Normal ... Switch to Inverse"

 

[Robert-Y]

I just want to say, I was trying to follow your solution but kept failing then 5BLD figured out why

 

[kinch2002]

This should be in the How-to's, Guides, etc. section of the forum.
Has anyone done a video tutorial to explain insertions?

I've planned to do some FMC tutorials for ages now, but keep having a lack of camera. I've written everything down already so one day I'll manage to make them

 

[spyr0th3dr4g0n]

But really, if you know how 8 move comms work you shouldn't really need someone telling you how you do inserttions; just sticker pieces and go move by move through your skeleton.

I know how 8 move comms work, and I can follow the pieces through the solve, but I don't understand how to make the commutators cancel moves with the solution. I would just be sticking in an 8 mover during the solve and hoping for some good luck.

 

[Selkie]

I know how 8 move comms work, and I can follow the pieces through the solve, but I don't understand how to make the commutators cancel moves with the solution. I would just be sticking in an 8 mover during the solve and hoping for some good luck.

For instance my recent solve leaving three corners was:-

R' U' F R' F' L F L' F2 . R2 D R D' U F L F' L' F' D2 B D' F D2

So stepping through I found

Insert @ . = D' L' D R2 D' L D R2 = 3 cancellations

So insert the commutator there and the solve can then be written as

[First part of original solve][Inserted Commutator][Last part of the original solve], ie

[R' U' F R' F' L F L' F2] [D' L' D R2 D' L D R2] [R2 D R D' U F L F' L' U' F' D2 B D' F D2]

But there is no point doing R2 following by R2 because R2 and R2 cancel themselves out so we remove both of them as the net effect is the two moves didn't do anything to the cube:-

R' U' F R' F' L F L' F2 D' L' D R2 D' L D D R D' U F L F' L' U' F' D2 B D' F D2

And now we see D followed by D, well that is exactly the same is writing D2 so:-

Final Solution = R' U' F R' F' L F L' F2 D' L' D R2 D' L D2 R D' U F L F' L' U' F' D2 B D' F D2 = 30 HTM

....

So you are looking for as many of the moves at the beginning and end of the commutator to match the moves in the solution at the insert point. As you step through you can tell if the first move of the comm is the same face you just stepped and the same goes for the last move of the comm and the next move you would make. Hope that clarifies somewhat.

Edit: Say you were lucky enough to find the following insert:-

[R' U' F R' F' L D L D] [D' L' D R2 D' L D R2] [R2 D' L' U F L F' L' U' F' D2 B D' F D2]

Well lets look at the start of the comm D' cancels with the D before it. Both can be removed = 2 cancellations. So after those two moves are removed the L' and L cancel = 2 more cancellations. Now we see a D and a D, that can be changed to D2 for another single cancellation. Now to the end of the comm. Well R2 and R2 cancel = 2, D and D' for another 2, then L and L' for another 2, then its D' and U. So 11 cancellations. In this very lucky case inserting the commutator actually resulted in the final solve being shorter than the original skeleton, we added 8 moves and ended up removing 11 moves. Definately worth looking for

 

[Selkie]

A lot of times you can even beat the optimal LL solution with Snyder+corner insertion anyway.

Indeed at this early stage of my FMC solving, my F2L-1 to L3C or F2L to L3C is more based on luck than judgement. I my OLLs from my arsenal, some Heise but Snyder is something I haven't played with yet. I did notice a post this year about a Korean site that made the algs for all cases with EO or only 2 flips but would be more interested in some tutorials or other resource if there are any good ones available. Certainly if it usually offers a better result to optimal LL algs. I guess the more tools you have available the better chance you have of getting a good continuation to a good early part of the solve.

 

[irontwig]

When you use pseudo blocks and pre-moves Heise and Snyder meld; when you in a Heise solve hide away a LL-pair in the last slot you have a pseudo F2L. When doing 1h FMC you can just trial and error 6-8 move algs and hope for the best, but ofc the better grasp you've of how they affect the whole LL the better.

 

[Selkie]

When you use pseudo blocks and pre-moves Heise and Snyder meld; when you in a Heise solve hide away a LL-pair in the last slot you have a pseudo F2L. When doing 1h FMC you can just trial and error 6-8 move algs and hope for the best, but ofc the better grasp you've of how they affect the whole LL the better.

Thank you. Indeed the majority of of my solves are brute force attempt using my collection of OLLs, EO, some VHF2L, some Winter variation (less so because orientation of last corners isn't important) but it can still lead to an L3C. But the work I am doing on the LL agls and cycles and I am doing the same with my own OLLs is giving me much better insight into what they are actually doing to the LL and I guess with time I will be making more intuitive LL moves.

It is a very good point about hiding a CE pair, something I have not yet fully mastered with Heise but it certainly a much more intuitive way of creating a block on the LL. Really must persevere and try and master the Heise step to L3C.

Thanks for the advice, yet more to add to my "FMC To Do List"

 

[Cubenovice]

I plead guilty to the brute force approach...

I'm also guilty of forgetting beautiful approaches that I have seen elsewhere (like breaking up blocks at this stage) which unfortunately reduces the brute force succes rate.

 

[Andri Maulana]

with this, i only have done 8 serious attempt, 41 - 43 - 40 - 40 - 39 - 36 - 37 - 32
very nice improvement, i'm so happy
this scramble is hard for me, and i don't understand much about insertion etc. Just using premoves, inverse and cfop solve, so this is very good for noob like me.

scramble: L' F' D' F2 R L2
B2 D L F D' F2 D F2 D2 R2
U' L2

2x2x2: U B' U2 R2 B2 F' R' F' R'

inverse, premove: R F R F B2 R2 U2 B U'
2x2x3: U' F' D F U
f2l - 1: B' D2 B'
f2l: D R D2 R2 B R B'
oll: R D R' D' R' B R B'

final solution: U B' U2 R2 B2 F' R' F' R' B R' B' R D R D' R' B R' B' R2 D2 R' D' B D2 B U' F' D' F U (32 moves)

PB 32 moves

 

[Selkie]

scramble: L' F' D' F2 R L2 B2 D L F D' F2 D F2 D2 R2 U' L2

PB 32 moves

Nice CFOP solution and certainly better than any CFOP solution I have done

Had a little play with the scramble during lunch at work and got as far as:-

Premove: D [1]
F L2 D L' D2 //2x2x2 [6]
R2 F2 U' F' //3x2x2 [10]
U F R F' R U' //F2L-1 + CE Pair[16]

Then needed to get back to work, a continuation later...

Edit: Actually I would be very interested in a move advanced FMC'er showing a good annotated continuation from my start. All advise is hugely appreciated at this stage in my solving

 

[ardi4nto]

Tried that scramble too..
Got 28, with quite like CFOP:

Scramble: L' F' D' F2 R L2 B2 D L F D' F2 D F2 D2 R2 U' L2

Spoiler

For inverse scramble with premoves L' U
1x2x3: B U L2 (3/3)
2x2x3: R U2 L' U' F' U2 (6/9)
F2L: B' D2 B * D B' D' L (7/16)
Leave 3 corners: L' D' B' D B L B2 (4/20)
Undo premoves: L' U (2/22)
Insert at *: B' U' F2 U B U' F2 U (6/28)
Inverse to get solution for normal scramble
Final solution: U' L B2 L' B' D' B D2 B D' U' F2 U B' U' F2 U D2 B U2 F U L U2 R' L2 U' B'

Notice that leaving 3 corner step is using common OLL algorithm.

 

[Selkie]

Nice CFOP solution and certainly better than any CFOP solution I have done

Had a little play with the scramble during lunch at work and got as far as:-

Premove: D [1]
F L2 D L' D2 //2x2x2 [6]
R2 F2 U' F' //3x2x2 [10]
U F R F' R U' //F2L-1 + CE Pair[16]

Then needed to get back to work, a continuation later...

Edit: Actually I would be very interested in a move advanced FMC'er showing a good annotated continuation from my start. All advise is hugely appreciated at this stage in my solving

Actually found a nice continuation, not a good fmc result in terms of HTM but a nice result for intuitive solving and some good LL block/pair building practice, which I am really in need of...

Premove: D [1]
F L2 D L' D2 // 2x2x2 [6]
R2 F2 U' F' // 3x2x2 [10]
U F R F' R U' // F2L-1 + CE Pair [16]
U' R2 U // Pseudo Pair (thanks for advise earlier in the page irontwig ) - 1 Cancellation [18]
F R F' // LL Square [21]
R F R' F' // Place 3rd LL Edge [25]
R F R' F' // Pair [29]
R U' R U R' // Solved [34]

34 HTM

Think I can say that is the first cube I've solved in over 30 years of solving on and off where I didn't use one algorithm (or comm)

 

[Andri Maulana]

scramble: L' F' D' F2 R L2
B2 D L F D' F2 D F2 D2 R2
U' L2

got new solution, but takes a very long time, about 4 hour -_-

premove: B' F2 D' (3)
f2l-1: R' F' D2 R2 F R' U L' D L U2 (14)
EO: D2 R F' R' F (19)
l3c: D F D F' (23)
fix corner: F' U' F D F' U F D' (cancel 1 move)

final solution: R' F' D2 R2 F R' U L' D L U2 D2 R F' R' F D F D F2 U' F D F' U F D' B' F2 D' (30 moves)

very nice

 

[Selkie]

A new PB, 25HTM, in Weekly 2012-24

NOTE: Active Comp In Spoiler

Spoiler

Scramble: R2 D2 F2 D L2 F2 L U' R2 B' L2 B U2 F2 R2 D2 R2 F L2

On Inverted Scramble:
Premoves: U2 F' D2 [3]
D2 F2 //2x2x1 [5]
B2 L2 D //2x2x2 (D2 Premove) - Inserted L2 for a better continuation [8]
L2 F2 //3x2x2 (F' Premove) [10]
U L' U' L2 U' //F2L-1 (U2 Premove) [15]
U' L U //Pseudo F2L with 1 Cancellation [17]
L' B L2 B' //L3C

Skeleton: D2 F U2 B : L2 B' L U' L' U2 L2 U L U' F2 L2 D' L2 B2 F2 D2
: = B R B' L2 B R' B' L2 = 4 Cancellations

Final Solution = D2 F U2 B2 R B' L2 B R' B2 L U' L' U2 L2 U L U' F2 L2 D' L2 B2 F2 D2 = 25 HTM

A PB Found a 2 move cancellation insert at 55 mins, found this one at 58 mins so very close to time limit but was determined not to DNF again

 

[Andri Maulana]

scramble: L' F' D' F2 R L2 B2 D L F D' F2 D F2 D2 R2 U' L2

trying to search for insertions for the first time by myself. Take about 1 hour, but finally got this ^^

premove: B' F2 D' (3)
f2l-1: R' F' D2 R2 F R' U L' D L U2 (14)
EO: D2 R F' R' F (19)
l3c: D F ! D F' (23)

!: F U F' D F U' F' D'

final solution: R' F' D2 R2 F R' U L' D L U2 D2 R F' R' F D F2 U F' D F U' B' D' (25 moves)

 

[Andri Maulana]

Fmc mustcube 412 no time limit

Spoiler: Active competition

(found less than 2 hour)

scramble: F：2 B2 R U' F' D' U F U D' B' U2 F' B2 U2 F' B2 D' B F R' F' L2 D2
B' L2 U B R2 D2

inverse scramble
premove: L' U' F2
pseudo 2x2x3+1x2x2: U' B D' R F' R F U
pseudo f2l-1+1x2x2: R2 F' R' F R'
L3C: B R' B' R' U'

inverse all, solution: F2 U L ! U R B R B' R F' R F R2 U' F' R' F R' D B' U

!: L U R U' L' U R' U'

final solution: F2 U L2 U R U' L' U B R B' R F' R F R2 U' F' R' F R' D B' U (24 moves)

 

[Selkie]

Apologies for the thread flood recently guys. I'm sure the FMC novelty will wear off .. eventually!

If there was ever a case of a good start with good promise but poor finish it was this scramble (random qqtimer) F2L-1 in 10HTM!, yet only a 28 HTM, disappointing. Might be worth a try though

Scramble: D2 U2 B F L2 D2 F L2 R2 U2 L' U F D' B U' L D2 U B2 R

Spoiler

Immediately three pairs looks good and first thoughts were to try and preserve them all. That said, ironically the chosen first turn broke one of the pairs!
On Inverse:
Premove: F2 [1]
L' U' R //2 Outer squares [4]
B D //Inner Square [6]
B' F //3x2x2 (Requires F2 Pre) [8]
B L B' U' //F2L-1 Also 2 cancellations on the B' F B combination [10]
L' U B' U' B //EO and from here starts to get disappointing after a great start but struggled to find continations [15]
B L' B' L' //L4C

L4C Normal Solution: F2 L . B L B2 U B U' L U B L' F' D' B' : R' U L

. = L F L' B L F' L' B' = 5 Cancel
: = B' U' B D' B' U B D = 1 Cancel

Final Solution = F2 L2 F L' B L F' B2 U B U' L U B L' F' D' B2 U' B D' B' U B D R' U L = 28 HTM

 

[Cubenovice]

N8W8 competition:

FMC scramble:
R2 B' R D2 L' F' U F B U L' F2 U2 B2 U2 D2 L' U2 L2

podium:
1 Robert Yau 30
1 Jan Bentlage 30
3 Maarten Smit 32
near podium:
4 The novice 33

Spoiler

Robert
FULL
L R2 U D' B D B' R B R'B2 F D B' D B2 F2 - F2L
L' B L B' U2 B L D' R U2 B' D B2 U' - OLL followed by 5 move cancel corner cycle
We checked with IF later and 30 HTM was the best to be had.
Correction: it wasn't OLL, it was ELL before CLL, in an attempt to leave 3 corners

Cubenovice
L D B' R F' L2 U' R U2 R2 B2 L U' L' U R' U' R U' B' U2 - leaves 5 corners (B' U2 premoves)
did not check the full skeleton; settled for 3 cancellations for the 1st cycle
2nd only cancelled 1 so total 33 HTM

IF found 5+2 for 30 htm...
5 move cancelled near the end of the skeleton (where I did not look...)
Sigh...