[Help Thread] Colour Neutral Discussion and Help

Great! I am looking foward to you report. Maybe you could do an Ao100. I am really curious about that. Best Ao12 does not mean that much to me. Ao100 tells you way more imho ;)

Perhaps you are right. But I guess it was a little hard for me to do Ao100 during the training days. I was doing the 4219.5 marathon with F2L only which didn't leave a lot of time. Even with Ao100, a different day can see different results. I could try Ao100 sometime, but I actually don't know what sort of Ao100 I had with white only. Somewhere around 18 seconds is my estimate.
 
CN Training Day 28 (all colours except white)

Ao12 I just did (18.80):
18.72, 17.98, 16.16, 17.37, 18.19, 22.45, 15.82, 19.24, 20.11, 18.81, 21.26, 20.17

Will add more to this post later. I don't want to do the colour thing for so many solves but wanted to do it for fun. These were actually the first 12 solves of the day. I tried to pick the best cross each time. Actually I cheated once in between. There was a really good white cross on one of the scrambles and I couldn't resist... I got 15.15 on that one but I didn't include that in this average.

...
Ok, so I did about 80 full solves including the first 12 (above). Best Ao5 = 16.90. Best Ao12 = 17.80. Not bad times. Will do this for two more days and then come back with white included after that.
 
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Even with Ao100, a different day can see different results

Yeah, but the differences are smaller. I think an Ao100 is the best way to tell you where you are at.

CN Training Day 28 (all colours except white)

Ao12 I just did (18.80):
18.72, 17.98, 16.16, 17.37, 18.19, 22.45, 15.82, 19.24, 20.11, 18.81, 21.26, 20.17

I could only dream of consistency like yours. That is awesome!! Going back to single or dual cross solves for you would be a crime to the cube hobby. Really..
 
I could only dream of consistency like yours. That is awesome!! Going back to single or dual cross solves for you would be a crime to the cube hobby. Really..

I don't think I'm that consistent, especially with my CN solves. Perhaps it appears more consistent because I am a little faster than you. Like, you wouldn't expect a 7-second variation for a sub-10 solver if you know what I'm saying. But yeah, maybe the way I see the cube now has changed too much for it to be worth going back. Then I would feel like I had accomplished nothing in this last month (not really but kinda). I was actually surprised that my yellow cross solves were not better than my other colours. But... I'm still undecided about whether or not to stay with the CN thing...
 
For all the people who are thinking about becoming color neutral. I started about 8 weeks ago training CN and today I broke my old Ao12 and Ao100 PB's. White is not my dominant color any more. If you want to try, just stick with it and like Jskyler says, don't mind your louzy times that you will get in the first few weeks. I too was tempted a few times to go to white crosses. But this topic kept me going for CN. Now that I am CN I will never go back.
 
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Day 7 of going dual CN with roux.
It is a little different with roux as there are 24 starting blocks in CN instead of 6 starting cross...
I know 2 starting blocks well so I follow Skylers "program" on the 6 remaining to become dual CN.
It will take some time before my times are back to normal but I feel it is the right choice.
 
CN Training Day 30 FINAL REPORT

White cross Ao12: 16.77 (original 17.49, -0.72)
15.56, 18.88, 15.57, (19.03), 15.10, 17.65, 18.03, 16.54, (12.91), 16.96, 15.88, 17.56

Yellow cross Ao12: 17.24 (original 19.89, -2.65)
(20.98), 15.80, 16.59, 17.42, 17.73, 16.76, 16.69, 18.54, (13.47), 15.35, 19.55, 17.98

Green cross Ao12: 19.46 (original 24.28, -4.82)
18.28, 18.82, 17.85, 20.72, 20.51, 18.79, (17.61), 19.92, 19.12, 19.72, (24.13), 20.83

Blue cross Ao12: 19.02 (original 22.39, -3.37)
20.37, 21.53, 17.50, 18.93, 16.69, (21.65), (16.03), 20.98, 19.24, 16.63, 17.96, 20.36

Red cross Ao12: 19.23 (original 24.37, -5.14)
20.58, 17.73, 20.03, (23.41), 15.86, (15.85), 23.59, 18.35, 16.36, 20.10, 21.67, 18.24

Orange cross Ao12: 17.98 (original 22.35, -4.37)
16.04, 17.52, (15.48), 18.79, 19.47, 18.00, 17.99, 18.80, 18.80, 17.93, (20.08), 16.43


Result analysis

It appears that I improved on all fronts and I'm quite relieved to see that my white cross times have not suffered even after a month of nearly no white crosses. It was expected that the greatest improvement appeared in the 2 remaining "colour filters" for green/blue and red/orange though the final results from this Ao12 exercise was not as good as I hoped it might be. Green/blue/red were all sup-19. Orange was a surprise as I had not gotten a sub-18 Ao12 during my orange-specific training days. I am pleased to note that my yellow result (17.24) was better than my original white (17.49). Of course, Average of 12 can vary from hour to hour or day to day. Most people would probably agree, so results have to be taken with a grain of salt though I feel that it's obvious I am still biased towards white/yellow, and particularly my original colour, white.

Summary of experience

As has been said many times by jsklyer91 and others, frustration at some point or another is quite normal and was to be expected. I have a naturally persevering personality but found it slightly frustrating on the days when I did not feel myself improving or when it felt worse than the day before. But generally it was not so very bad because I expected this exercise to be difficult. There were times that I was tempted to revert to my original colour. I probably "cheated" about half a dozen times by doing a white cross. During the 5 days for each colour, it was encouraging to see daily improvement. Colour neutrality is about choosing which cross to start on (fewest moves, best for finger tricks, possible best X-cross, etc.) which is supposed to help with look-ahead into the first pair. However, I found the hardest part of the month to be the last part, when I had the choice between all the colours and was constantly switching colours from one solve to the next. I had to constantly remind myself which colour filter I needed for the current solve. Planning the cross was fine, but then I had a tendency to forget which colour I was doing halfway through F2L which meant I had to look at the center sticker of the U face and figure out what colour cross I started on. All this takes thought and time. Even a split second of thought totally disrupts look-ahead. Now, even without this problem, cross selection was not that easy either. Granted, I have not really learned X-cross yet and only know the concept behind it, but just from the perspective of easiest cross, most of the time all crosses were more or less equal. Even with 6 choices, really easy crosses (3 moves or less crosses) appeared infrequently. One shouldn't worry about lousy times when transitioning to being CN, but eventually, one does have to worry about lousy times because the whole point is to get faster. After spending a month on the program, sup-20 still appears way too frequently for my comfort when on white I was pretty much past getting sup-20s.

Conclusion

I do not regret spending the last month on CN training. What is one month when I plan to be cubing for the rest of my life? Cubing is a wonderful hobby and I love it. I'm not out to set a WR... my life is too busy for that (3 young kids, actually will be 4 later this year). Or even for those who are trying to be best of the best, colour neutrality is still controversial. Plenty of people have gotten sub-10 on single colour. If I could get that far with single colour, I would be elated. Sorry for disappointing those who were rooting for me to be CN. It was a good experience overall, but no thanks. I still believe I could be CN if I stick with it, but I think it's more trouble than it's worth. I'll try for dual colour W/Y. Unless after a few weeks the switching between solves still confuses me.. well then I will go back to white and be happy.

Today's dual W/Y Ao12: 16.68
16.90, 16.78, 16.47, 16.24, (13.47), 16.77, 15.57, 19.14, 16.27, (19.70), 16.76, 15.92
 
Somehow I kind of felt from the beginning that you would probably go back to white crosses. I think you will be faster in the end on white crosses since you remained dominant white. Continuing a few more months CN might have taken that away. But I do think that X-crosses is not for every one. And you might be one of that small group (intelligent, people who can set their mind to it and willing to put in time) to take true advantage of solving CN. Solving white only is probably not the base for X-crosses. So from that perspective it is really a shame that you go back to white or dual. But hey.. it's all just a hobby and if you have more fun getting faster with just white/dual you should definitely go for that. Congrats on your upcoming 4th edition ;) That explains a lot about your recent physical state (of exhaustion) ;)
 
Somehow I kind of felt from the beginning that you would probably go back to white crosses. I think you will be faster in the end on white crosses since you remained dominant white. Continuing a few more months CN might have taken that away. But I do think that X-crosses is not for every one. And you might be one of that small group (intelligent, people who can set their mind to it and willing to put in time) to take true advantage of solving CN. Solving white only is probably not the base for X-crosses. So from that perspective it is really a shame that you go back to white or dual. But hey.. it's all just a hobby and if you have more fun getting faster with just white/dual you should definitely go for that. Congrats on your upcoming 4th edition ;) That explains a lot about your recent physical state (of exhaustion) ;)

Perhaps it was because I was never fully convinced that CN was the way to go. If I was absolutely convinced it was better, I would continue. I'm sure being dual colour can take advantage of X-crosses fine when easy ones appear. Corner-edge pairs have to either have yellow or white on them somewhere, right? And it's probably better for me to use my time practicing prediction of my first pair. Right now I don't really do that... I just do cross while scanning the cube hoping to see something.

And yes, my recent physical state is quite well explained now. I'm terribly exhausted and eating for three (me, nursing baby, developing baby). I'm sleeping all the time and eating all the time and yet still tired and hungry all the time! Haha.
 
Sneaklyfox, you have very good times on CN : ) If someone would be practised CN from beginning of his adventure with speedcubing, he will got the same times like normal person, who is practising only white or dual color. When I was learning LBL method, I was making cross on white and yellow. Yeah, I know it, it's easy, but a know a lot of speedcubers, who are making cross only white, and can't do that on yellow side. For person, who made 5k or more solves , is easiest way to still making cross on white/yellow even 1-2 mothns of learning CN. It's normal. That is just colors, nothing more. Some people solves on japanesse scheme, where opposite colors are side by side. And have good times. To us it looks difficult, but I said - that is just colors, if you practise CN more, you have better color filtration.
 
Sneaklyfox, you have very good times on CN : ) If someone would be practised CN from beginning of his adventure with speedcubing, he will got the same times like normal person, who is practising only white or dual color. When I was learning LBL method, I was making cross on white and yellow. Yeah, I know it, it's easy, but a know a lot of speedcubers, who are making cross only white, and can't do that on yellow side. For person, who made 5k or more solves , is easiest way to still making cross on white/yellow even 1-2 mothns of learning CN. It's normal. That is just colors, nothing more. Some people solves on japanesse scheme, where opposite colors are side by side. And have good times. To us it looks difficult, but I said - that is just colors, if you practise CN more, you have better color filtration.

I know I can get my colour filters better if I wanted to. I think the bigger problem is switching from one solve to the next.
 
I know I can get my colour filters better if I wanted to. I think the bigger problem is switching from one solve to the next.

That is one thing you did not really try for a few days. You have trained one color at a time. My guess is that you would be surprised how many easy crosses you will find once you do solves on all colors. Maybe you should give that also a week or two? ;)

EDIT: I have no problem switching from one color to the next. In fact, after a solve I have to check what cross color I just did. My guess is that you would also have no problems with that.
 
That is one thing you did not really try for a few days. You have trained one color at a time. My guess is that you would be surprised how many easy crosses you will find once you do solves on all colors. Maybe you should give that also a week or two? ;)

EDIT: I have no problem switching from one color to the next. In fact, after a solve I have to check what cross color I just did. My guess is that you would also have no problems with that.

I did do solves on all colours, choosing the best cross. Most of the time all crosses were about equal and there were not that many "easy crosses"... compared to normal anyway. But maybe it makes a bigger difference for you because you found cross a weakness. I never had a problem with cross. I also said already that I DO have a problem with switching from one colour to the next every solve. Anyway, thanks for suggestions but I'm not going back to CN solving. It sounds cool, but I'd rather just be faster.
 
Update. Today:

White cross Ao50:
Mean: 27.80
Average: 27.74
Best time: 22.01
Median: 28.18
Worst time: 36.18
Standard deviation: 2.52

Best average of 5: 25.01
12-16 - 24.39 24.17 (22.01) (28.11) 26.46

Best average of 12: 26.44
12-23 - 24.39 24.17 (22.01) 28.11 26.46 29.59 (31.99) 23.25 28.65 27.39 29.36 23.00


Color neutral Ao50:
Mean: 28.18
Average: 28.13
Best time: 17.70
Median: 27.11
Worst time: 40.84
Standard deviation: 4.49

Best average of 5: 23.72
43-47 - 22.85 21.48 (20.88) (27.16) 26.84

Best average of 12: 25.64
36-47 - 24.67 25.31 30.20 (17.70) 29.02 (34.35) 28.01 22.85 21.48 20.88 27.16 26.84

Funny stuff.. I broke my Mo3 in the Ao50 Color neutral solves.
 
I'm CN after 1 week of practise. Just open your mind and train. On first day I had a lot of times over 25s (when I had avg around 19s on white), at last day I beat my PB Ao5 (made at last 1600 solves on white ) to 17.17s, on color neutral. My tip - don't practise on one color too much. It's fine, but just find the easiest cross, and make it. After +500 solves on color neutral, I have the same times like on white color.
 
Ok, time for an update. Still solving color neutral today. I did an Ao50 of 26.19

Mean: 26.19
Average: 26.19
Best time: 20.84
Median: 26.02
Worst time: 31.44
Standard deviation: 2.73

Best average of 5: 24.43
37-41 - (22.97) 23.94 23.71 25.65 (31.30)

Best average of 12: 25.44
37-48 - 22.97 23.94 23.71 25.65 (31.30) 27.06 25.52 30.35 (22.09) 22.73 26.70 25.80

1. 23.03 L2 U L2 D F2 D2 B2 U2 R2 B2 D' R B' U' L2 U2 L F' L2 F' L
2. 26.62 R2 U' F2 U' R2 D2 U B2 U' L2 F2 L B2 D2 F' R' B2 L2 B' D U
3. 27.27 B2 R2 U' F2 D R2 U' B2 D F2 U R D2 R U' B U' B2 R F' L' D'
4. 26.54 D' R2 D B2 D B2 U B2 F2 U R' B2 F R2 L B2 D' U2 B2 R2 U2
5. 28.66 F2 U' L2 D' L2 D B2 D2 B2 U2 F' R B L2 F2 D' U' R' U2 B' U'
6. 28.27 R2 B2 L2 D B2 D' R2 U B2 U' B R' F' U R' D2 L U2 R2 F'
7. 29.09 L2 U' L2 U R2 F2 L2 U' B2 D U2 L D' F D' R' D2 R' B' R' U' R'
8. 21.92 U B2 F2 D' B2 U L2 U F2 R' D' R' B U2 L B' F D L' D2
9. 25.93 L2 F2 R2 F2 D' U2 B2 R2 D L2 U2 L B' D2 B2 R U B F2 U2 R L'
10. 25.71 F2 D2 B2 U R2 U B2 D R2 D2 L2 B' R F2 L' U' B D F2 D
11. 25.56 B2 U2 B2 D F2 D F2 U F2 U' B2 L U L B2 D2 F D2 F' R D'
12. 27.35 B2 D R2 B2 L2 B2 D2 R2 D L2 D' R' B2 D' R2 L B R' F'
13. 27.32 U' B2 U2 B2 D2 L2 F2 D R2 B2 L' B' L' B2 D' U F' R D U2
14. 22.21 U F2 L2 U L2 B2 D' B2 D B2 U F' L' D2 U2 F R' L F2 U' F D'
15. 30.84 R2 U2 R2 D' U' B2 U' L2 D' B2 U F U' F' L F2 D2 F2 U B' L' D'
16. 24.92 U B2 F2 R2 D' B2 D L2 B2 D2 U' R' U L2 B' L' B2 F2 D2 F2 U
17. 20.84 B2 D2 R2 D2 U L2 D B2 U B2 U R' D B' D R D R D L' F
18. 31.44 L2 D2 L2 U' L2 U' B2 U2 R2 L2 U' R' L' F L' U2 L' D U R2 L U2
19. 27.15 R2 U' R2 L2 U' B2 R2 L2 D' R2 D B R2 F' D2 R2 L D B' U R'
20. 28.17 U2 B2 D R2 D L2 U2 F2 L2 F2 L D2 B' L F2 L F' U R' B
21. 27.37 D F2 R2 U2 R2 D' F2 L2 B2 R2 U' B D U R D2 F' R' B' L' B2
22. 22.09 D2 R2 U' R2 D F2 D' F2 U2 L2 U2 R U' F' D L' F R L' D' U2
23. 27.80 B2 U' R2 D F2 R2 F2 U L2 F2 U L D L2 F' D2 L' B' L F2 R D'
24. 22.36 D F2 L2 B2 U2 F2 U R2 D2 R2 U R U2 B' F D2 B2 F L D' B2
25. 27.83 U' R2 F2 D' B2 D U2 L2 D F2 U2 F R' D' B R B F' U B' F' U
26. 26.10 D L2 D' U2 B2 R2 U2 B2 R2 U L2 B U' L B' D2 R' U' R2 B2 R U2
27. 26.69 B2 U' F2 U' F2 D R2 U2 R2 U' R' F D2 B D' U2 R F R' L'
28. 29.22 R2 D' R2 L2 F2 D' B2 F2 L2 D2 U F U2 F U2 L' U' L B2 D R U'
29. 25.54 D F2 L2 D B2 D B2 L2 U' F2 R2 B' U2 L' U' L2 F2 D' B' R L D'
30. 30.03 L2 U2 B2 F2 D' L2 U R2 F2 U B F2 U' F R' F D' U2 B' U' F' U'
31. 20.99 U' B2 U2 B2 L2 U L2 D2 L2 F2 U' B' F2 R2 D R D2 B L' F' L'
32. 25.14 B2 F2 D' F2 D2 B2 U' R2 B2 U' R2 F' R D B R' D2 U R D' L U
33. 25.91 R2 U B2 U' F2 R2 D R2 D F2 U2 R' D' B' L F2 R2 U' B F2 U'
34. 25.77 L2 F2 U2 R2 D' F2 D' F2 D' F2 U' B' R U B F' L' D B2 L2 B U'
35. 29.07 R2 F2 D R2 F2 U R2 L2 U B2 F2 R F L' B' U2 B' F2 R B D2
36. 30.94 D2 F2 L2 U' B2 U' L2 F2 U2 B2 U F R' D B D2 B2 L' D2 F2 U'
37. 22.97 L2 D R2 F2 U2 R2 D B2 D' B2 D2 R U B' F' L D' U F' U2 F U2
38. 23.94 D2 U' F2 R2 U2 L2 U F2 L2 U R2 B U' L2 F U B' D F R' D' U
39. 23.71 B2 U' R2 B2 U R2 B2 F2 D R2 F2 L' U F R B2 R2 B L' U2 B'
40. 25.65 U' L2 D R2 L2 F2 R2 U B2 R2 U2 L F U' B' U2 R U' L B' U'
41. 31.30 U' L2 D' R2 U2 L2 B2 D' L' D2 U L2 F' R D2 L' D' L U'
42. 27.06 L2 U B2 F2 R2 D2 U' F2 D L2 D2 L' F' R2 F' U' R L2 U L
43. 25.52 D' L2 U2 B2 F2 U' R2 F2 D R2 F2 R' U' B' F L' U L2 D' B' L2
44. 30.35 B2 L2 D R2 D F2 R2 B2 U L2 U' F R L' F D' F' U L'
45. 22.09 R2 B2 F2 D B2 D' U' B2 R2 U' R2 B' D R2 F2 R D2 U' F' R' L'
46. 22.73 B2 D' L2 D' R2 B2 U L2 D' B2 U B R2 B L2 F' R U' B2 R' L U'
47. 26.70 D U B2 R2 U B2 U' B2 R2 D U' F R2 B' R U2 F2 U L' D2 F2
48. 25.80 D' L2 F2 R2 U2 B2 U F2 L2 D' B' U' L B' D R U B' D B' U'
49. 25.51 U' L2 D' U2 F2 L2 U F2 U' B2 U B R L2 D' B2 L' D2 R F L' U2
50. 24.60 B2 D B2 D' F2 D F2 L2 U' B2 U2 L' U' R' F' D L2 D R B' D'

I think now (after starting in December) I can say I am complete 100% color neutral. I filmed a few:

52. 28.20 R2 F2 D R2 L2 U' B2 D2 F2 D B2 L' U2 B R2 F' R' U2 R B2 D2 U'
52. 27.72 L2 U' B2 D' F2 U2 B2 R2 U F2 U2 L B D2 L' B' U R' D2 F D U2
53. 24.84 F2 R2 B2 U2 R2 U R2 D' R2 U' F2 R' D2 F' D2 U2 R B2 L D' L U2
54. 21.89 F2 U2 L2 B2 F2 U' B2 D' U2 F2 R2 B R2 F' R2 L D R' B L' F2 U'

 
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Marcel, Back in December when you started the journey to color neutrality, i was fully color neutral. Now when you have accomplished color neutrality, I have dropped down to W/Y cross. Good job Marcel!
 
I just recently decided to go for color neutrality and so far I'm enjoying it very well. I discovered the one month plan to switching and I'll definitely be getting into that. Very informative.
 
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