[Help Thread] Colour Neutral Discussion and Help

[MarcelP]

Hi Marcel, nice to meet you!

That's great about your progress, I hope you continue to see such fast improvement! Yes, I have been trying to beat my opposite color neutral pb (which is my true personal best average ever) with my new color neutral solving, and yes after a year I still have not done it. I don't remember my color neutral pb offhand, but I know that I am within about 0.6 - 0.7 second away.

Well Chris,

I can imagion at these time you have it is very hard to get a second of you times anyway. How quickly did you feel confertable to say I am color neutral and my averages are the same as on white cross?

 

[RubikMouse]

I've trained since a week to become CN, my method is simple: look for the best cross and stick with that colour and sometimes when I feel like I havent had, for example, orange in a while, I look for orange pieces also I don't time my solves so I haven't exact progress measurement but based at how quick I can find my pieces and make less mistakes I can say I've improved very well towards CN! Because I don't really stick to one colour it doesn't feel like training at all, the feeling ofnsolving different colours on cross is becoming really regular to me, which makes it real fun! In normal solves I even forget to get to white instantly, which gives me confirmance that I am getting neutralized (LOL) even more

Based on my experiences in only a week, I think CN really is an advantage for cross building ( especially in OH which can save you some very painful rotations) and for look ahead aswell. I am also able to line up the colours much quicker (knowing the order of the colours next to each other) since you have to know the colours in all directions while in white cross solves you only have to know red,orange, blue and green in the same direction

 

[cmhardw]

Well Chris,

I can imagion at these time you have it is very hard to get a second of you times anyway. How quickly did you feel confertable to say I am color neutral and my averages are the same as on white cross?

I think you are correct that at a certain point it takes much practice to improve, but I think for me it is a result not of me being faster but of me having been opposite color neutral for a long time before trying to switch.

I don't feel that I am comfortable enough to say that I can solve equally fast (on average) with colors other than white or yellow crosses. I do sometimes get phenomenally good times on say an orange, or green cross, but I can't sustain that on average yet. I feel like just changing to color neutral will eventually make me faster on average, but again I have a little bit further to go to get there.

Also, speedsolving is not my main focus. I still mainly blindsolve, but I like to practice 3x3x3 because it is simply too much fun to not. If I were to dedicate myself to improving at my speedsolving like you all do, I'm sure I would improve more quickly than I have.

I've trained since a week to become CN, my method is simple: look for the best cross and stick with that colour and sometimes when I feel like I havent had, for example, orange in a while, I look for orange pieces also I don't time my solves so I haven't exact progress measurement but based at how quick I can find my pieces and make less mistakes I can say I've improved very well towards CN! Because I don't really stick to one colour it doesn't feel like training at all, the feeling ofnsolving different colours on cross is becoming really regular to me, which makes it real fun! In normal solves I even forget to get to white instantly, which gives me confirmance that I am getting neutralized (LOL) even more

I think that is a good way to go about it, since as you say you always feel like you are a new kind of solver (a color neutral solver) rather than training colors. I do find that some structure as jskyler mentions helps from time to time. I sometimes tell myself that during an average I will only solve non-white/non-yellow crosses. This is the compliment to my original white/yellow neutral solving which I think helps me to make sure that I practice getting used to the colors I previously never solved. I haven't done that very often lately, but I did a lot at first when I started switching.

 

[Mollerz]

So I used to believe I was CN, I was pretty much always. I learnt from pogobat's tutorial and always did green cross initially, then stopped after a week. When I came back just over 3 years later I was under the impression solving on any colour would be better so I just did that and got fast. The other day I was going through my videos and I noticed the majority of my fast solves are on blue/green. So I stopped "being" CN and switched to dual colour green/blue. I dropped around two seconds after about a weeks practice from 17-15 and if I keep practicing I do honestly believe I can be sub-14 by the end of the month which I would not have been able to do with CN.

I do believe I am inherently better at CN than some people, I do single colour star on megaminx but doing CN I only drop about 20 seconds on average but I am still under my initial impressions that dual-colour is better in the long term than CN. Just thought I'd put that out there.

 

[Kirjava]

I really just depends on the person.

 

[sneaklyfox]

Ok, ok. After I graduate sub-30 race with Roux (hopefully in a week or two, fingers crossed), I will try the colour neutral thing. It will probably take longer than a month because I am not at 30 second average like jskyler was when he did the transition. I'm at ~17-18ish. I'm committing to stick to jskyler's approach for one month. But I will not go past two months of trying to be CN. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work for me. If it does, then good and fine.

 

[jskyler91]

So I used to believe I was CN, I was pretty much always. I learnt from pogobat's tutorial and always did green cross initially, then stopped after a week. When I came back just over 3 years later I was under the impression solving on any colour would be better so I just did that and got fast. The other day I was going through my videos and I noticed the majority of my fast solves are on blue/green. So I stopped "being" CN and switched to dual colour green/blue. I dropped around two seconds after about a weeks practice from 17-15 and if I keep practicing I do honestly believe I can be sub-14 by the end of the month which I would not have been able to do with CN.

I do believe I am inherently better at CN than some people, I do single colour star on megaminx but doing CN I only drop about 20 seconds on average but I am still under my initial impressions that dual-colour is better in the long term than CN. Just thought I'd put that out there.

I think what you are seeing here is the increased lookahead and planning time for a single cross versus multicross. You are probably able to plan more into your crosses because you just do one (a common argument for being color fixed) and since you are still sup 15 seconds that is likely an area that needs work and thus having more time for it will make a huge difference in your times. Especially since you just got back into cubing (did I read that right?) you will find that having extra time to just focus on one or two crosses is way easier than trying to plan out potentially 6. With time and practice though you will find that you can plan all 6 crosses in under 4 seconds (I normally do) and spend the rest of those 8 seconds planning x-crosses and predicting first pair with incredibly easy crosses.

Basically it comes down to practice and lookahead which if you only have 1 cross and you haven't fully "mastered" crosses then doing one will be easiest, but CN, like learning proper fingertricks or new algs etc is an investment. I say do it now so you can reap the benefits sooner, but as Kir says it really just depends on you and your goals. My goal is maximize my potential and I truly believe that being CN is part of that so I did it and now I will never go back. Also, you should realize that most color fixed people use very little of their inspection time anyway (most people I know use less than half!) so why not use a little more of that free time and make sure your cross is the easiest and fastest you can get it? Why not increase your chances for x-crosses and make influencing your second pair all the easier? I do x-crosses 8 out of 10 times CN but only really find them (and this is if I really try which I don't have to for CN) 4 out of 10 times, thats doubling my chances!! That in and of itself is all I need to stick with it lol.

At the same time though you could just try to look ahead further into the cube with just one cross, however, i don't know about you, but I find its easier to lookahead and plan if you have an easier cross... and being CN helps with that dramatically. That and the sheer amount of free pairs you get from being CN makes it totally worth it to me. Just my two cents.

 

[MarcelP]

I'm committing to stick to jskyler's approach for one month. But I will not go past two months of trying to be CN. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work for me. If it does, then good and fine.

If I get Ao12's that are sub 30 at the end of the one month training I will stick with it forever I think that is a nice and dueable target.

 

[applemobile]

Well now i have hit a predicament. My main issue is that i really don't get enough tie to practice. Colour neutral i am averaging around 25seconds, but thats probably because my yellow and white crosses are bringing my times down. So i dont get a huge time to practice, so all the time i am practicing CN i am not practicing other things. I just decided to 50+ solves on yellow and white, and i broke my avg5 time and i got a 12.26 full step single (the single was on yellow!) so i am thinking that my time would be better spent doing what i was doing before, Xcrosses and influencing edge orientation during F2l. But i think i will solve on different colours from time to time as it certainly seems to have helped my Last layer recognition some how.

Spoiler: Times

best avg5: 15.80 (σ = 0.82)

14.94, 16.58, 15.89, (25.75), (14.57)

 

[Mollerz]

I think what you are seeing here is the increased lookahead and planning time for a single cross versus multicross. You are probably able to plan more into your crosses because you just do one (a common argument for being color fixed) and since you are still sup 15 seconds that is likely an area that needs work and thus having more time for it will make a huge difference in your times. Especially since you just got back into cubing (did I read that right?) you will find that having extra time to just focus on one or two crosses is way easier than trying to plan out potentially 6. With time and practice though you will find that you can plan all 6 crosses in under 4 seconds (I normally do) and spend the rest of those 8 seconds planning x-crosses and predicting first pair with incredibly easy crosses.

Basically it comes down to practice and lookahead which if you only have 1 cross and you haven't fully "mastered" crosses then doing one will be easiest, but CN, like learning proper fingertricks or new algs etc is an investment. I say do it now so you can reap the benefits sooner, but as Kir says it really just depends on you and your goals. My goal is maximize my potential and I truly believe that being CN is part of that so I did it and now I will never go back. Also, you should realize that most color fixed people use very little of their inspection time anyway (most people I know use less than half!) so why not use a little more of that free time and make sure your cross is the easiest and fastest you can get it? Why not increase your chances for x-crosses and make influencing your second pair all the easier? I do x-crosses 8 out of 10 times CN but only really find them (and this is if I really try which I don't have to for CN) 4 out of 10 times, thats doubling my chances!! That in and of itself is all I need to stick with it lol.

At the same time though you could just try to look ahead further into the cube with just one cross, however, i don't know about you, but I find its easier to lookahead and plan if you have an easier cross... and being CN helps with that dramatically. That and the sheer amount of free pairs you get from being CN makes it totally worth it to me. Just my two cents.

No, I've been cubing for nearly 2 years now, all the time I used to be CN. I can still pick a CN cross fast and probably pick the best cross, but that is not where the advantage lies. I still use the majority of my inspection time, even being dual colour. I still probably do better crosses on 2 colours than you do on 6 colours. With dual colour you can fully plan out 2 crosses to their maximum potential, spot free pairs, etc. (Also by the way doing x-crosses that much is not going to be faster in the long run, yes you get a "free pair solved" by doing an x-cross but you'll be able to do Cross+2 faster if you just did a cross and then 2 pairs. Obviously not always this will be the case but you should know when to limit yourself to an x-cross because right now you do it way too much).

The problem lies with the pattern recognition provided by being CN, when I do a red/orange cross I do not see the pairs very well at all. I pause a LOT more during F2L than when I do a blue/green cross. Same for white/yellow but on a lesser scale. The issue is the lookahead during F2L, not the cross. This is why is why I chose dual colour.

 

[Xishem]

Still in that "getting used to it" phase where I'm familiarizing myself with NMB and CN, so my times are dropping very quickly, but progress feels slow -- I don't actually feel like I'm getting faster, but my times are dropping. An unmotivating thing.

 

[MarcelP]

I have finished 5 days Green, 5 days Blue and started on my first day Orange today. I just did a Ao12 for the race of sub 30:

Average: 32.29
33.25 30.44 (35.44) 31.63 (27.49) 34.51 28.41 34.04 33.47 28.49 35.36 33.33


I am quite pleased with the results so far. Not long ago I was sub 33 with just cross on white. I think about 6 - 8 weeks ago or so. I have noticed that orange and red are easy for me. Green not to bad eighter. But Blue is horrible...

 

[Clarkeeyyy]

Its funny, I can do white and green pretty evenly, blue and yellow drop a few seconds and red and orange are just impossible to me.

 

[MarcelP]

I just did a Ao50 on CN and Ao50 on white/yellow. Also filmed a few solves:

http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/s...-Marcel-from-Holland-here&p=815057#post815057

 

[MarcelP]

Update, did an Ao50 CN yesterday and had a sub 31 result. There was a sub 28 Ao 12 in there. I have improved greatly. I have no problems anymore with the color filters on any face. I just need to develop a better lookahead like I have on white cross. I guess in just a matter of weeks I have new PB's but then full color neutral.

 

[Dacuba]

Low13 dude trying it.

I've been solving CN rarely here and there for a long time to get some feeling. I think it's time to take it down.

Spoiler

number of times: 100/100
best time: 11.12
worst time: 26.23

current avg5: 17.05 (σ = 1.46)
best avg5: 13.52 (σ = 1.64)

current avg12: 16.71 (σ = 2.24)
best avg12: 14.41 (σ = 1.39)

current avg50: 16.77 (σ = 2.00)
best avg50: 16.67 (σ = 2.71)

18.96, 15.29, 14.57, 14.52, 14.40, 16.01, 17.67, 15.88, 17.46, 18.78, 11.31, 15.84, 16.31, 19.57, 24.98, 18.00, 18.50, 15.87, 19.83, 14.71, 13.23, 14.35, 13.42, 15.73, 18.17, 16.24, 12.32, 15.84, 15.41, 12.71, 12.45, 26.08, 19.99, 19.58, 13.77, 15.79, 15.91, 16.88, 17.68, 16.57, 23.56, 18.55, 19.23, 16.65, 16.25, 13.79, 16.86, 22.60, 24.94, 13.16, 23.15, 19.91, 11.12, 15.61, 15.55, 19.03, 17.73, 19.73, 26.23, 16.09, 16.43, 15.52, 15.60, 13.66, 13.59, 17.35, 13.35, 20.11, 14.65, 18.43, 15.18, 16.39, 17.61, 15.08, 15.26, 19.94, 17.99, 14.05, 17.34, 17.37, 16.72, 19.26, 18.79, 17.82, 18.25, 14.05, 16.82, 13.87, 15.18, 16.51, 13.50, 20.95, 18.54, 14.17, 17.07, 21.02, 15.39, 18.17, 17.58, 12.94

 

[MarcelP]

Wow man! You should definatly switch to CN

 

[jskyler91]

Great work everyone!! Switching takes some serious dedication and it WILL be frustrating, but keep to it. Good to hear so many people giving it a shot!! Even if you come out of this with just one more color under your belt it will make huge differences in how you solve and in you cross to f2l transitions.

 

[sneaklyfox]

Alright, so I'm giving this a shot. jskyler91, I'll follow your outlined schedule... why not. Below is my baseline before CN training.

White cross Ao12: 17.49
16.56, 17.51, (19.87), 17.92, 19.32, 16.89, 18.09, 16.81, 16.95, 18.23, 16.58, (14.28)

Yellow cross Ao12: 19.89
(15.51), 19.84, 19.34, 20.79, 23.07, 16.34, 20.37, 20.60, 20.79, 19.60, 18.15, (23.85)

Green cross Ao12: 24.28
29.61, 21.41, 25.93, 21.77, 23.77, (19.61), 23.79, 27.60, 22.63, (31.19), 25.44, 20.83

Blue cross Ao12: 22.39
22.37, 19.90, 24.35, 23.32, (19.58), 22.27, 21.74, 25.73, 23.34, (27.28), 21.19, 19.73

Red cross Ao12: 24.37
23.05, 25.43, 22.49, (28.02), 21.51, (18.91), 23.36, 27.90, 25.05, 25.40, 21.72, 27.81

Orange cross Ao12: 22.35
21.66, 22.90, (30.50), 26.29, 19.06, 24.62, 18.30, 20.61, 25.49, (18.16), 25.74, 18.87

Interesting. Notice I did not warm up on any of the colours except for white which was from previous solves of the day. Blue was better than green and orange was better than red. I wonder if it's because I had 12 solves already on the opposite colour so the second set was better.

 

[TP]

Interesting. Notice I did not warm up on any of the colours except for white which was from previous solves of the day. Blue was better than green and orange was better than red. I wonder if it's because I had 12 solves already on the opposite colour so the second set was better.

I had the same pattern myself when doing Ao12.