Colour Neutral Deliberation

[jskyler91]

'Addiction' generally requires the activity in question as thought to be addictive to have an overall negative consequence associated with it. Colour bias has not been shown to have an overall negative effect.



You think your limited experience applies to everyone in all situations. This is why you are wrong.

My experience is only the icing on the cake, and my logic is till sound and thus my hypothesis is likely true.. As to the negative connotation thing you are just being ridiculous now man, connotations are culturally perceived and not necessarily true, in some cultures where spousal abuse is ok people don't think the word abuse is negative at all. The definition still fits regardless of connotations.. I am not necessarily saying that you have to switch because it is bad, but although I do believe this, but i am just giving a method for switching.

No. This topic is about if you should switch or not. You're the only person who thinks how to switch is important.

The title of this thread is color neutral deliberations, so this discussion fits. Also how can you say your not interested? You came to my thread and started ranting that switching wasn't possible for fast people, completely ruined my thread and got it closed, then you came over here and quoted me trying to insight me into verbal fight.. Those do not seem to be the actions of a man who isn't interested.

 

[Pedro]

To jskyler91

I'm a little sleepy, so please forgive me if I say something wrong, but you said in your 2nd video that if you want to quit smoking, you don't just stop, right?

Well, there's a sunday tv show here, with HUGE following, and this famous doctor did a series to help people quit smoking. And the first thing he said was DON'T SMOKE AT ALL. It's tough, obviously, but if you do it, your brain will find it good and won't want to stop.

But in this thread you said "to break a habit, you must avoid all temptation". So I'm confused. Should you smoke less and less or quit right now?


Another thing, you say "I'm not saying you'll be 100% in a month, but you'll be able to do your current times on any color". If being 100% is not exactly that, then what is it?


Also, I don't think CN is that much better. You said you can find easier crosses, have better look ahead and stuff. Well, I do sometimes have bad crosses solving only on white, but I've learned to deal with it.
I don't think you'll have BETTER look ahead with CN, since you have more options to go, and your brain needs to be able to look ahead in more ways. I think using only one color gives you the best look ahead possible, because it's always the same pairs and center-positions.
You said you can have faster TPS because of the easier cross, but...really? Cross is like 4-8 moves. Does it make that much of a difference in TPS?

Other thing. You said one-color solving is "like an addiction since most people do it and cannot stop themselve".
Well, I can stop myself and solve with other colors. It's not like I'll freak out if I'm not allowed to use white. I'll just be slower.
This reminds me of when I thought about switching from ring-finger-OH to pinky-OH. It looks good, but I'm not sure I'd ever get to my current times (around 18-19 in good days), let alone get faster.

Oh, and btw, I've tried solving with other colors, and got times like 14-18 (I average low-11). I'm stuck with my times for a while, and that's probably because I've been cubing too long, and didn't learn it the good way from the beginning. I don't think I'll be able to switch to CN in a month or two, as you state.


The main thing I think about CN is how people choose the cross. "I just do what looks easy", "I go for the easier one"...Well, analysing all 6 colors takes time, even if you're really good. Time which could be spent looking for pairs. So I don't think your claim that "it helps you see the first pair" is totally valid.

I would like to try your "method", but I don't have that much spare time (I do right now, but probably not for long, since I need a job), and I'd rather practice to (try to) improve my times, rather than do something which I'm not sure about the advantages and do-ability.

EDIT

I'll try doing and avg100 with each color and see how it goes, but that's tomorrow. Bed time now.

 

[jskyler91]

To jskyler91

I'm a little sleepy, so please forgive me if I say something wrong, but you said in your 2nd video that if you want to quit smoking, you don't just stop, right?

Well, there's a sunday tv show here, with HUGE following, and this famous doctor did a series to help people quit smoking. And the first thing he said was DON'T SMOKE AT ALL. It's tough, obviously, but if you do it, your brain will find it good and won't want to stop.

But in this thread you said "to break a habit, you must avoid all temptation". So I'm confused. Should you smoke less and less or quit right now?


Another thing, you say "I'm not saying you'll be 100% in a month, but you'll be able to do your current times on any color". If being 100% is not exactly that, then what is it?


Also, I don't think CN is that much better. You said you can find easier crosses, have better look ahead and stuff. Well, I do sometimes have bad crosses solving only on white, but I've learned to deal with it.
I don't think you'll have BETTER look ahead with CN, since you have more options to go, and your brain needs to be able to look ahead in more ways. I think using only one color gives you the best look ahead possible, because it's always the same pairs and center-positions.
You said you can have faster TPS because of the easier cross, but...really? Cross is like 4-8 moves. Does it make that much of a difference in TPS?

Other thing. You said one-color solving is "like an addiction since most people do it and cannot stop themselve".
Well, I can stop myself and solve with other colors. It's not like I'll freak out if I'm not allowed to use white. I'll just be slower.
This reminds me of when I thought about switching from ring-finger-OH to pinky-OH. It looks good, but I'm not sure I'd ever get to my current times (around 18-19 in good days), let alone get faster.

Oh, and btw, I've tried solving with other colors, and got times like 14-18 (I average low-11). I'm stuck with my times for a while, and that's probably because I've been cubing too long, and didn't learn it the good way from the beginning. I don't think I'll be able to switch to CN in a month or two, as you state.


The main thing I think about CN is how people choose the cross. "I just do what looks easy", "I go for the easier one"...Well, analysing all 6 colors takes time, even if you're really good. Time which could be spent looking for pairs. So I don't think your claim that "it helps you see the first pair" is totally valid.

I would like to try your "method", but I don't have that much spare time (I do right now, but probably not for long, since I need a job), and I'd rather practice to (try to) improve my times, rather than do something which I'm not sure about the advantages and do-ability.

EDIT

I'll try doing and avg100 with each color and see how it goes, but that's tomorrow. Bed time now.

Ok, first and foremost, my method was NOT to do avg of 100 with each color, someone else said that. You can see a description of my "guide" in my thread. As to the smoking stuff I don't mean that you should smoke to ween yourself off of smoking I mean you should do nicotine patches or something to change your body slowly. I am proposing a similar method with my vid, you don't ever smoke (use your dominant color) you just use other colors and learn to switch. That is what i mean by my metaphor.
100% to me means without thought or bais, this is something that does take a longer time to achieve. Just because you can solve CN as well as the rest doesn't mean you can necessarily do it thoughtlessly. Also, these benefits are small, I agree, but they will become all the more useful as you increase. One thing that I completely agree with Kirjava on is that the sooner you change the better because it will only make it easier. If you want more info on my method or my reasons why you should switch check my thread in the how to section. As to whether or not being CN is better I admit that there are good arguments on both sides, but I personally think the good outweights the bad. Whether or not you agree is up to you. Also, and I have stated this a million times, the only way you will know if it will work is to try. Even if you only find that you can solve with one other color well isn't that better?

 

[Kirjava]

My experience is only the icing on the cake, and my logic is till sound and thus my hypothesis is likely true..

You keep saying that your argument is correct because of 'logic'. Simply saying it is true without explanation does not make it actually true,

As to the negative connotation thing you are just being ridiculous now man, connotations are culturally perceived and not necessarily true, in some cultures where spousal abuse is ok people don't think the word abuse is negative at all. The definition still fits regardless of connotations.. I am not necessarily saying that you have to switch because it is bad, but although I do believe this, but i am just giving a method for switching.

You did not understand what I wrote. Since addiction requires the addictive thing to be negative, colour bias cannot be said to be addictive since it cannot be shown to be a negative trait. Please note that saying something has not been shown to have an overall negative effect is not the same as saying that it is not negative. What you said has absolutely no relevance to what I said.

The title of this thread is color neutral deliberations, so this discussion fits.

Please read and understand the argument before replying to it. You said that the topic is not about switching.

Also how can you say your not interested?

I... didn't? I have no idea where you got this from and it appears that you have made it up.

You came to my thread and started ranting that switching wasn't possible for fast people

I did no such thing. I have never stated that switching is not possible.

completely ruined my thread and got it closed, then you came over here and quoted me trying to insight me into verbal fight..

How come when I reply to one of your posts I'm "insighting" a fight, yet when you do it there is nothing wrong?

Those do not seem to be the actions of a man who isn't interested.

Of course I am interested, why else would I make this topic in the first place. CN is a topic that I have recently been interested in. I have no idea where you go the idea about how I am not interested.

One thing that I completely agree with Kirjava on is that the sooner you change the better because it will only make it easier.

Yet you think that however different the difficulty is, it will still take the same amount of time.

 

[Pedro]

Ok, first and foremost, my method was NOT to do avg of 100 with each color, someone else said that. You can see a description of my "guide" in my thread. As to the smoking stuff I don't mean that you should smoke to ween yourself off of smoking I mean you should do nicotine patches or something to change your body slowly. I am proposing a similar method with my vid, you don't ever smoke (use your dominant color) you just use other colors and learn to switch. That is what i mean by my metaphor.
100% to me means without thought or bais, this is something that does take a longer time to achieve. Just because you can solve CN as well as the rest doesn't mean you can necessarily do it thoughtlessly. Also, these benefits are small, I agree, but they will become all the more useful as you increase. One thing that I completely agree with Kirjava on is that the sooner you change the better because it will only make it easier. If you want more info on my method or my reasons why you should switch check my thread in the how to section. As to whether or not being CN is better I admit that there are good arguments on both sides, but I personally think the good outweights the bad. Whether or not you agree is up to you. Also, and I have stated this a million times, the only way you will know if it will work is to try. Even if you only find that you can solve with one other color well isn't that better?

I've read your thread and your guide, and I never said you told us to do one avg100 with each color...

About the smoking, the doctor seems to disagree with you He said "just don't smoke and be strong". He never claimed everyone could do it in X time, actually he said many times that was not the goal. The goal was to help people who wanted to quit. Not everyone succeeded, but some did.

About the 100%, please explain to me how much better you can get from doing it as well as your dominant color...if that's not 100%, I don't really know what you mean.

I think everyone agrees that the sooner you switch, the better, that's pretty obvious.

Even if you only find that you can solve with one other color well isn't that better?

I'm not sure I understood this. Do you mean I should try to switch, and if after a month I can't do it, that's better? Better than what? I already knew I could solve with one color well...and I wasted a month of practicing my color...(*confused)

 

[cmhardw]

To add something to this conversation I have decided that I am color neutral now.

To clarify: I am going to approach becoming color neutral the same way I make a change to my BLD solving - I simply make the change in its entirety, cold turkey, and stick with it.

My approach so far has been to examine and plan each cross (untimed, so probably using greater than 15 seconds when I inspect the cube) and to count the number of moves for each cross color without actually applying moves to the cube. I also check to see if any color has an X-cross, and I choose the best X-cross if there are multiple options. I then choose the option with the shortest number of turns. My goal will be to reduce the amount of time taken to less than 15 seconds, and also to get to the point where I can go by gut instinct to choose my cross color, rather than examining the move count on all colors to decide.

I actually kind of like solving on any color so far, it's fun to be doing something new that will, hopefully, pull me out of the OK-Plateau. I expect to hear the argument "Your data does not count, as you're not considered a 'fast' solver", and my response to that is I understand the sentiment, but I don't care. I am curious if I can make the color neutral switch, and for those who are interested I will post about it if I find any significant happenings during this process. I am curious to see if I can overcome 6 years of being white-yellow color neutral by becoming completely color neutral.

I used to be a white cross only solver for about 6 years before I decided to become white/yellow neutral. Now I consider myself 100% white/yellow neutral, but it took about a year for this to become automatic. My prediction is that, assuming I stick with it which so far I plan to, that becoming fully color neutral will take about a year to become completely automatic.

I know this disagrees with some of the arguments presented so far, but this has been my experience so far with changing my degree of color-neutralness.

 

[Kirjava]

To add something to this conversation I have decided that I am color neutral now.

Teller? Is that you? XD

To clarify: I am going to approach becoming color neutral the same way I make a change to my BLD solving - I simply make the change in its entirety, cold turkey, and stick with it.

I think it'd be more correct to say you are in a state of switching than you are actually colour neutral.

I used to be a white cross only solver for about 6 years before I decided to become white/yellow neutral. Now I consider myself 100% white/yellow neutral, but it took about a year for this to become automatic. My prediction is that, assuming I stick with it which so far I plan to, that becoming fully color neutral will take about a year to become completely automatic.

I know this disagrees with some of the arguments presented so far, but this has been my experience so far with changing my degree of color-neutralness.

In my original post I estimated a year and over. You're agreeing with me. This timescale is much more realistic than a month, and is backed by evidence.

 

[Sa967St]

I, for one, will never switch to CN or opposite-CN.
I find that the two biggest advantages of being used to one colour cross is that
1) I don't ever have to think what the permutation of the cross pieces is, and
2) PLL recognition is easier for cases that have mirrors.

When planning the cross I never look at the centers just to check what order the 4 pieces have to be in, I already know the order is green-orange-blue-red. Sometimes I only use a second or two of inspection, because all I need to locate the cross pieces. I don't have to ever think about which one has to go where with respect to each other, because I'm so familiar with it.

Question for CN/opp-CN CFOP solvers: When solving a void cube, do you have to take a moment to think about the permutation of the cross pieces during inspection, or do you 'just know' where they go with respect to each other?

As for PLL recognition, there are 71x4=284 unique ways the PLL can look (2-side recognition), all of which I am very familiar with. If someone asked me what the missing colour is here given that's it's the Ab perm, I would instantly know it's green, or if someone showed me these (click click) and asked me which one had white LL and which one had a yellow LL, I would instantly know which one is which. Knowing the PLLs this well is especially useful when I preserve blocks during OLL. If I had this case (the 3x1 block stays with R' U' R' F R F' U R), I would know that the PLL is either R(a), G(a), U(b), A(a) or Z, before even performing the OLL, and I could narrow it down even further by looking at the CP.

An interesting thing is, it's not the white I'm so used to, it's the surrounding colours. A cube with the standard colour scheme with 2 opposite colours swapped throws me off so much if I use white cross, but not at all if I use yellow cross. I could probably easily adjust to any colour scheme that has green-orange/yellow-blue-red around the E layer.

 

[cmhardw]

I, for one, will never switch to CN or opposite-CN.
...
...
2) PLL recognition is easier for cases that have mirrors.

Sarah, that's really interesting. I've seen your site for PLL recognition using only 2 sides, but I never thought about how much easier this would be if you always solved the same, fixed cross color. I can definitely see this as very good argument in favor of single color only cross solving.

I think an implicit argument that people often use for CN solving is one very similar to the one I present here. As Stefan Pochmann pointed out a few years ago, this reasoning is likely flawed when you use it for complete color neutral solving, but it will likely be good as a very rough estimate.

So, for example, if you have an approximately 10% chance of getting a really good cross when always solving the same cross color, then you have very roughly a:
\( 1-(1-0.10)^6 \approx 47\% \)

chance of getting an equally easy cross when choosing the easiest cross color out of your 6 choices. Again, as Stefan pointed out, this may only be a rough approximation of your actual chance for this.

I find it interesting that color neutral solving benefits the beginning of the solve very much, whereas solving with a fixed color benefits the ending (i.e. PLL recognition) very much. Personally, I think that the jury is still out as to which is more of a benefit than the other, or if this varies from person to person.

 

[masterofthebass]

I find it interesting that color neutral solving benefits the beginning of the solve very much, whereas solving with a fixed color benefits the ending (i.e. PLL recognition) very much. Personally, I think that the jury is still out as to which is more of a benefit than the other, or if this varies from person to person.

I don't know if I can completely agree with this assessment. Yes, being CN would hinder Sarah's 2side recognition, but that is far from the norm used for PLL. Also, what constitutes "benefits the beginning of the solve very much"? The 2-3 move benefit that sometimes happens when being CN, in my opinion, does not impact the solve as much as some might think. I think the main benefit to an easy cross is the cross -> F2L transition, which is just made a little easier and perhaps more consistent with shorter crosses, but really does not justify switching to being CN from fixed color cross.

 

[masterofthebass]

Maybe not to you, but I know a lot of cubers who would love to be more consistent and have a better lookahead simply by method i.e. by being CN

Except the vast majority of the solve is not the the cross -> F2L transition. That is a very minute part of the solve which is only slightly benefitted from being CN. It is hardly a big enough difference to invest the sheer amount of time necessary to switch to being CN.

 

[jskyler91]

Except the vast majority of the solve is not the the cross -> F2L transition. That is a very minute part of the solve which is only slightly benefitted from being CN. It is hardly a big enough difference to invest the sheer amount of time necessary to switch to being CN.

I would agree if the cross to f2l transition only affected that particular time in the solve, but it doesn't your cross to f2l transition changes the entire tempo of your solve and, for me at least, determines how fast you can solve it.

 

[masterofthebass]

I would agree if the cross to f2l transition only affected that particular time in the solve, but it doesn't your cross to f2l transition changes the entire tempo of your solve and, for me at least, determines how fast you can solve it.

I highly doubt that you honestly believe the only thing that affects a solve's time is the cross to f2l transition. I already said that a good transition is aided with CN, but it in no way is so heavily influenced that it is worth switching. People who are fast with fixed cross have the ability to make good transitions, whether that is from lookahead during cross/inspection, or just the ability to find the pieces they need instantly. The burden of switching to being completely color neutral is absolutely not worth the slight benefit that can happen on a few solves.

 

[jskyler91]

I highly doubt that you honestly believe the only thing that affects a solve's time is the cross to f2l transition. I already said that a good transition is aided with CN, but it in no way is so heavily influenced that it is worth switching. People who are fast with fixed cross have the ability to make good transitions, whether that is from lookahead during cross/inspection, or just the ability to find the pieces they need instantly. The burden of switching to being completely color neutral is absolutely not worth the slight benefit that can happen on a few solves.

I just did an average of 100 and 73 of those crosses where not white crosses. That seems to be a little more than every few solves. 75% of the time I am saving a few moves over white. That seems to be worth it to me. I am beginning to realize that this is simply a topic that neither side will budge on. Those who are set in non color neutrality will not listen to the logic of why to be color neutral and vice. I think you should just go with whatever you want to do because it doesn't really matter what others say you (not you masterofthebass, but you as in the non listening person in general) are just going to do what you want.

 

[masterofthebass]

Anecdotal evidence of how many solves you did that didn't have a white cross means absolutely nothing. Saving 1-2 moves is in no way possible a valid reason to basically relearn how to solve a cube. I can average sub 12 CN, but the solves are so far off from my white cross that the time needed just is not worth it.

 

[Pedro]

Dude, you didn't "prove your points". There's no way to do that. Neither for you or us.
Saying "75% of the time I am saving a few moves over white" means nothing. Did you actually count all the crosses? Are you sure the white cross wasn't the same # of moves as the cross you chose?

 

[Pedro]

Ok, just did an avg100 with yellow:

First 50: 15.67 mean, SD = 2.21
Best avg5: 13.84, Best avg12: 14.35

Total: 15.13 mean, SD = 2.50 (16.5%)
Best avg5: 12.15, Best avg12: 13.99

Some easy solves (three 11s) near the end made the good avg5.

My global avg with white (10739 solves over the past 5 months) is 12.47, with SD 1.75 (14%) so this was about 21% slower.

Here are the graphs from Prisma with this avg100 and my global with white and also the avg100 with blue:
Yellow White Blue Green

------------------------------------------------------The day after---------------------------------------------------------

Avg100 with blue today:

Fist 50: 17.04 mean, SD = 2.08
Best avg5: 14.55, Best avg12: 16.34

Total: 16.66 mean, SD = 2.05 (12.3%)
Best avg5: 14.55, Best avg12: 15.22

16.66 is 33.6% slower than my 12.47 avg with white.

Added the blue avg graph above.

-------------------------------------Jan 16th------------------------------

Did green today:

First 50: 16.39 mean, SD = 2.10 (12.8%)
Best avg5: 14.08, Best avg12: 15.00

Total: 16.41 mean, SD = 2.37 (14.4%)
Best avg5: 13.80, Best avg12: 15.00

16.41 is 31.4% slower than avg with white

Added green graph above.
Best avg5: 13.80, Best avg12: 15.00

 

[Hammer]

Should i become CN?

 

[cmhardw]

Should i become CN?

In short: switching is difficult, but it is totally worth it.

 

[Logiqx]

In short: switching is difficult, but it is totally worth it.

Have you looked at how often you solve each cross colour? I have a tendency to pick white / yellow (50% white, 25% yellow) and everything else pretty much evenly. I seem to get equally good times whatever I choose so long as it is an easy cross.

Despite my bias for white / yellow my fastest competition times have been using green and red. I think non-white/yellow solves cause me to turn a little less quickly, resulting in better lookahead.