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3x3 With Feet Getting Removed

Faz

Former Clock NR Holder
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#21
You called?

Fantastic to hear that this event is on the way out.

1. The puzzle adds almost nothing new in terms of puzzle solving techniques, the only new 'skill' here is being able to manipulate the cube with your feet.
2. Not only is it difficult and time-consuming to run, it also requires a significant financial investment from delegates/organisers who want to hold the event (for a new set of timers, mats, gloves etc). In Australia, we have 5-6 cities with regular competitions, and transporting the 3x3WF equipment between those is also rather impractical. (hence, we've only ever held 3x3WF in one city)
3. It's unpopular. The delegate vote on feet and the decision to change the format to average of 5 (as they have done with previous events in the past) didn't do much to change the frequency at which it is held at competitions. Just over 2% of WCA competitors have ever competed in feet. Anecdotally, even some of the really fast feetsolvers think it's a joke, and some other cubers perhaps only participate in it for the sake of WCA profile completeness, and unofficial statistics like SoR, Kinch, Nemesizing, etc.
4. This one is just my opinion, but I think it looks quite unprofessional and has a negative effect on the image of speedcubing to the wider world. Whether or not we should care about this is another question, I think yes.
5. Also my opinion, there are already too many events in the WCA. At our 2-day Australian Nationals, we barely had time to fit in one FMC attempt, one MultiBLD attempt, and weren't able to host as many rounds of other events as we would have liked. Removing feet will free up time at competitions to host more popular events, or make schedules more relaxed which may have marginal effects on reducing scrambler/judge errors.

Sure, #1 also applies to one-handed solving and perhaps 7x7 solving, #2 and #3 apply to Clock and Big/MultiBLD, but I'm sure that the WCA delegates who voted on this matter over a year ago had more than just these criteria in mind. If 3x3WF did not currently exist, I very much doubt there would be anyone campaigning to add it to WCA competitions.
 
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#22
I completely disagree. I think feet is a pretty unique event that requires skill. There are many events in the WCA that don't add anything new to the puzzle, just a new way of solving it (e.g. 3x3 OH, 3x3 BLD, 4x4 BLD, 5x5 BLD, 3x3 MBLD, 3x3 FMC).

Sanitation- I don't know how people think that 3x3 Feet is gross or disgusting or has any other sanitation issues.
Having new timers doesn't really make sense. The most you are going to get on the timer is some dust or sweat (which can be the case with hands as well) and to fix that maybe just wipe the timer pads with a paper napkin or sanitary wipes and the scramblers can wash their hands after the event is done. For me, I do sweat sometimes and I wipe that off with a towel that I keep with me when I am competing because sweat doesn't really help solves, it makes them worse.

Popularity- The popularity has increased by 29% (as of 3/12/18) since 1/1/18 and people are getting very fast at it.
For example, the World Record went down by about 17% for average and single. So I don't see it as an issue.
The case of just 2% of people competing in it is just that it takes more skill and people have their own opinions of what events they like. Also might be because a lot of cubers in the WCA don't do many events, specifically new cubers and people who don't start off with a lot of events at first but slowly get into other events.

"Doesn't look professional" thing- As a feet solver myself, I have gotten some media attention in my state for feet solving and so do lots of other cubers.
For example, Rami Sbahi was invited to America's got Talent as he was noticed for his Feet solves. So I don't think there's a problem of a so-called "negative effect on the image of speedcubing".

Takes up time at competitions- I have organised 2 comps with feet in them and also was staffing at many others and didn't really see an issue there. We use different mats for feet and that doesn't really take up time. IMO clock takes more time as you have to give out more resolves but I still respect it as an event even though I am not into clock solving. And also removing any event would save time at competitions.

At this point I think WCA should be adding more events because even though there's a growing community and to stay relevant, they have to satisfy the desires of cubers and not be removing events because more events will improve the number of people competing at comps.

These are my opinions so feel free to correct me if you want.
 
Joined
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Massachusetts, USA
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2016QUIN01
#23
You called?

Fantastic to hear that this event is on the way out.

1. The puzzle adds almost nothing new in terms of puzzle solving techniques, the only new 'skill' here is being able to manipulate the cube with your feet.
2. Not only is it difficult and time-consuming to run, it also requires a significant financial investment from delegates/organisers who want to hold the event (for a new set of timers, mats, gloves etc). In Australia, we have 5-6 cities with regular competitions, and transporting the 3x3WF equipment between those is also rather impractical. (hence, we've only ever held 3x3WF in one city)
3. It's unpopular. The delegate vote on feet and the decision to change the format to average of 5 (as they have done with previous events in the past) didn't do much to change the frequency at which it is held at competitions. Just over 2% of WCA competitors have ever competed in feet. Anecdotally, even some of the really fast feetsolvers think it's a joke, and some other cubers perhaps only participate in it for the sake of WCA profile completeness, and unofficial statistics like SoR, Kinch, Nemesizing, etc.
4. This one is just my opinion, but I think it looks quite unprofessional and has a negative effect on the image of speedcubing to the wider world. Whether or not we should care about this is another question, I think yes.
5. Also my opinion, there are already too many events in the WCA. At our 2-day Australian Nationals, we barely had time to fit in one FMC attempt, one MultiBLD attempt, and weren't able to host as many rounds of other events as we would have liked. Removing feet will free up time at competitions to host more popular events, or make schedules more relaxed which may have marginal effects on reducing scrambler/judge errors.

Sure, #1 also applies to one-handed solving and perhaps 7x7 solving, #2 and #3 apply to Clock and Big/MultiBLD, but I'm sure that the WCA delegates who voted on this matter over a year ago had more than just these criteria in mind. If 3x3WF did not currently exist, I very much doubt there would be anyone campaigning to add it to WCA competitions.
To respond to your comments:

1. How does that argument not apply to OH? Also as many have said in the github thread, feet requires way more efficiency than 3x3 and OH. People learn hundreds of weird algs that are a few moves less and use B moves, F moves in bad combinations for 3x3 and OH.

2. 8 Timers only costs ~240 USD on the speedstacks website, which for a 100 person person comp would only be 2.4 dollars per registration, and spread out over multiple comps that can easily be >$1.

3. The delegate vote on feet happened back in 2017, there wasn't one for actually removing it in 2018. Also, unofficial stats/WCA Profile completeness would be the only reasons I (and many others) would ever do BigBLD.

4. I take the opposite view on this. Any article about DRL or other feet solvers that I've seen have just been in awe of the skill.

5. If there is already too many events, why did we add skewb of 6x6/7x7? Major championships were already 3 days at this point. Also for scheduling, I'm hosting a comp with feet in a month, and we can have it run concurrently with another event as it is on different timers and uses very little staff resources. This makes it take up no time at all.
 
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#24
The case of just 2% of people competing in it is just that it takes more skill [...] Also might be because a lot of cubers in the WCA don't do many events[...]
XD.

There are many events in the WCA that don't add anything new to the puzzle, just a new way of solving it (e.g. 3x3 OH, 3x3 BLD, 4x4 BLD, 5x5 BLD, 3x3 MBLD, 3x3 FMC).
3x3 FMC is probably the most unique event out there. Blinds are obviously similar to eachother, but that should not be reason to remove any of them. It's cool that we have sighted and blindfolded events. If anything, I'd love to have more of them.

Sanitation- I don't know how people think that 3x3 Feet is gross or disgusting or has any other sanitation issues.
It's just the way it is. It's hard to encourage somebody to scramble or judge 3x3 WF. People don't like touching cubes that was used for this event and they don't enjoy crouching when judging or inspecting if the puzzle is solved right next to someone's feet.

Popularity- The popularity has increased by 29% (as of 3/12/18) since 1/1/18 and people are getting very fast at it.
For example, the World Record went down by about 17% for average and single. So I don't see it as an issue.
Just because WR has improved (by just 1 person btw, WCA has more than 110 000 members), it doesn't mean it's getting more and more popular. This was explained by Lucas Garron anyway, so there is no point in arguing with WCA Board about this. It's not popular and everyone knows it. Everyone also knows why.


"Doesn't look professional" thing- As a feet solver myself, I have gotten some media attention in my state for feet solving and so do lots of other cubers.
For example, Rami Sbahi was invited to America's got Talent as he was noticed for his Feet solves. So I don't think there's a problem of a so-called "negative effect on the image of speedcubing".
Well, you must be really lucky then. From my experience, when I talk with people about competitions, they are always excited and interested. But if you mention that there is separate category for solving the cube with feet, they start to perceive us as some weirdos/nerds.. however you call it. And the funny thing is that they are right. It's simply easier not to talk about this aspect with other people.

Jakub Kipa appeared on a few TV shows and made few interviews in Poland. What I noticed is that he really don't enjoy speaking about it in media. It's all good for regular events though

Takes up time at competitions- I have organised 2 comps with feet in them and also was staffing at many others and didn't really see an issue there. We use different mats for feet and that doesn't really take up time. IMO clock takes more time as you have to give out more resolves but I still respect it as an event even though I am not into clock solving. And also removing any event would save time at competitions.
Well, it takes time after all.
 
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#25
You called?

Fantastic to hear that this event is on the way out.

1. The puzzle adds almost nothing new in terms of puzzle solving techniques, the only new 'skill' here is being able to manipulate the cube with your feet.
Look at the list of the fastest people at 2H, OH, and Feet. There is a lot of overlap between 2H and OH, but very little with feet. FMC rewards efficiency at the expense of all else, 2H is raw speed (both efficiency and TPS) at one time OH filled the gap between the two, but as people have gotten better at OH there is really very little gap between 2H and OH. Feet fills this gap.

4. This one is just my opinion, but I think it looks quite unprofessional and has a negative effect on the image of speedcubing to the wider world. Whether or not we should care about this is another question, I think yes.
The Rubik’s cube is a child’s toy. We are putting hundreds of hours and dollars into it, if not more. Of course it’s ridiculous. What’s really impressive is that people like you and Max and others have put so much work into a silly toy, and mastered it. Don’t get me wrong: it really is impressive, and I admire what you have accomplished, but it’s all the more impressive because what you’re starting with is so objectively silly. Own it.

5. Also my opinion, there are already too many events in the WCA. At our 2-day Australian Nationals, we barely had time to fit in one FMC attempt, one MultiBLD attempt, and weren't able to host as many rounds of other events as we would have liked. Removing feet will free up time at competitions to host more popular events, or make schedules more relaxed which may have marginal effects on reducing scrambler/judge errors.
There is room for discussion about removing events, but if events are going to be removed it should be trivial events first: clock, pyraminx, skewb, 2x2.

If 3x3WF did not currently exist, I very much doubt there would be anyone campaigning to add it to WCA competitions.
Irrelevant. It is an event, the presumption should be to keep things the same unless there is a clear reason otherwise. In this case a lot of work has been put into feet solving, and if the work had been put in without it being an official event (which it would not have been) then there would be many people, myself included, campaigning to add it. Work has been done, progress has been made, it is as unfair to the people who have done that work to remove the event as it would be to you to remove 6x6 or 7x7.
 
Last edited:
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#29
Look at the list of the fastest people at 2H, OH, and Feet. There is a lot of overlap between 2H and OH, but very little with feet. FMC rewards efficiency at the expense of all else, 2H is raw speed (both efficiency and TPS) at one time OH filled the gap between the two, but as people have gotten better at OH there is really very little gap between 2H and OH. Feet fills this gap.
Feet has nothing to do with FMC. It is a speedsolving event just like 3x3 and OH, you just use a different body part.
The main difference between FMC and anything else is that you can try out different solutions and pick the best one. It's not just about doing a normal solve while trying to be efficient.
 
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#30
Feet has nothing to do with FMC. It is a speedsolving event just like 3x3 and OH, you just use a different body part.
The main difference between FMC and anything else is that you can try out different solutions and pick the best one. It's not just about doing a normal solve while trying to be efficient.
Because TPS is limited in feet it effectively rewards efficiency. FMC is absolute efficiency, feet is a balance of efficiency and dexterity.
 
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#32
Feet is linear, FMC is not.
Perhaps a better analogy would be to compare feet to linear FMC. The point is that method matters, and while in 2H and OH which faces you turn is more important than how many times you turn them, in both feet and FMC how many times you turn them is more important than which ones are turned.
 
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#33
Perhaps a better analogy would be to compare feet to linear FMC. The point is that method matters, and while in 2H and OH which faces you turn is more important than how many times you turn them, in both feet and FMC how many times you turn them is more important than which ones are turned.
And why does that even matter?
 

mark49152

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#35
Perhaps a better analogy would be to compare feet to linear FMC.
Maybe, but linear FMC isn't an event.

I don't do feet, and I do see your point, but the fact that feet requires greater efficiency doesn't mean it was originally conceived to fill some gap on the efficiency spectrum, nor that it's necessary or interesting to do so, IMHO. Rather it's just a bit of fun (and there's nothing wrong with that).
 
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#36
. . . originally conceived to fill some gap on the efficiency spectrum,
The fact that it was not originally conceived to fill a gap does not mean that it does not fill that gap now. I believe that when feet was originally introduced OH filled the gap that feet now fills. As hardware and methods have improved, OH has closed the efficiency gap with 2H, leaving behind most of the gap that it originally filled.
 

Faz

Former Clock NR Holder
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#37
Popularity- The popularity has increased by 29% (as of 3/12/18) since 1/1/18 and people are getting very fast at it.
For example, the World Record went down by about 17% for average and single. So I don't see it as an issue.
The case of just 2% of people competing in it is just that it takes more skill and people have their own opinions of what events they like. Also might be because a lot of cubers in the WCA don't do many events, specifically new cubers and people who don't start off with a lot of events at first but slowly get into other events.
Yes, there are 29% more 3x3 WF results now, compared with the end of 2017. Over the same time period, the number of WCA competitors has increased by at least 25% (can someone provide the exact number? - my browser doesn't like it when I query all results on the rankings page). Adjusted for WCA population growth, the popularity has barely increased.

1. How does that argument not apply to OH? Also as many have said in the github thread, feet requires way more efficiency than 3x3 and OH. People learn hundreds of weird algs that are a few moves less and use B moves, F moves in bad combinations for 3x3 and OH.
In terms of actual solving methods and skills, it requires more efficient F2L solutions and learning algorithms that are more move-optimal. So, almost nothing new, compared with the majority of other WCA events. As I wrote in my original post, this argument does also apply to OH, 5BLD, and perhaps 6x6 and 7x7 to a lesser degree. It's just one argument of many.

3. The delegate vote on feet happened back in 2017, there wasn't one for actually removing it in 2018. Also, unofficial stats/WCA Profile completeness would be the only reasons I (and many others) would ever do BigBLD.
The delegate vote in late 2017 resulted in the plan to change the feet format to ao5 and monitor its popularity (which was intentionally not made public so as not to inflate the frequency that feet was held at competitions). I don't have the statistics to back me up here, but I believe that changing the megaminx and sq1 formats to ao5 had a reasonable impact on the popularity of those events - perhaps the intention of the WCA was to see whether it would have the same impact on the popularity of feet?

5. If there is already too many events, why did we add skewb of 6x6/7x7? Major championships were already 3 days at this point.
6x6 and 7x7 were added almost 10 years ago, the WCA was far smaller and competely different back then, I'm not sure it's relevant now. Skewb was added because it was relatively popular and people campaigned quite heavily for it, it's fairly simple and quick to run, and because the puzzle and its solving methods bring something new to the WCA, although it is far too scramble-dependent. This doesn't change my view that the WCA is a bit too saturated with events - I'm sure there are some people who'd want to see all of 6x6, 7x7, 5BLD, Clock, and perhaps even Skewb removed from the list of events, but it is nice that they are able to offer such a diverse range of events for competitors.

Look at the list of the fastest people at 2H, OH, and Feet. There is a lot of overlap between 2H and OH, but very little with feet. FMC rewards efficiency at the expense of all else, 2H is raw speed (both efficiency and TPS) at one time OH filled the gap between the two, but as people have gotten better at OH there is really very little gap between 2H and OH. Feet fills this gap.
The reason there is little overlap between OH and feet rankings is certainly not because of the marginally different solving skills required (ie, solving with slightly more efficiency and slightly less TPS).

Irrelevant. It is an event, the presumption should be to keep things the same unless there is a clear reason otherwise. In this case a lot of work has been put into feet solving, and if the work had been put in without it being an official event (which it would not have been) then there would be many people, myself included, campaigning to add it. Work has been done, progress has been made, it is as unfair to the people who have done that work to remove the event as it would be to you to remove 6x6 or 7x7.
I don't think it's irrelevant, I think it's a reasonable thought experiment when event removal is considered. The presumption should be to keep things the same, unless there are reasons otherwise - for feet there are indeed many reasons otherwise.
Also, people put hundreds of hours into practicing Rubik's Magic and Master Magic. Work was done and progress was made in those events as well, and sure, people complained that it was unfair.
FWIW, 7x7 (and 6x6 to a lesser extent) doesn't add very much in terms of solving skillset (although, I'd suggest still more than feet). I'd certainly be in favour of removing 7x7, and perhaps even 6x6.
 
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#40
Yes, there are 29% more 3x3 WF results now, compared with the end of 2017. Over the same time period, the number of WCA competitors has increased by at least 25% (can someone provide the exact number? - my browser doesn't like it when I query all results on the rankings page). Adjusted for WCA population growth, the popularity has barely increased.


In terms of actual solving methods and skills, it requires more efficient F2L solutions and learning algorithms that are more move-optimal. So, almost nothing new, compared with the majority of other WCA events. As I wrote in my original post, this argument does also apply to OH, 5BLD, and perhaps 6x6 and 7x7 to a lesser degree. It's just one argument of many.


The delegate vote in late 2017 resulted in the plan to change the feet format to ao5 and monitor its popularity (which was intentionally not made public so as not to inflate the frequency that feet was held at competitions). I don't have the statistics to back me up here, but I believe that changing the megaminx and sq1 formats to ao5 had a reasonable impact on the popularity of those events - perhaps the intention of the WCA was to see whether it would have the same impact on the popularity of feet?


6x6 and 7x7 were added almost 10 years ago, the WCA was far smaller and competely different back then, I'm not sure it's relevant now. Skewb was added because it was relatively popular and people campaigned quite heavily for it, it's fairly simple and quick to run, and because the puzzle and its solving methods bring something new to the WCA, although it is far too scramble-dependent. This doesn't change my view that the WCA is a bit too saturated with events - I'm sure there are some people who'd want to see all of 6x6, 7x7, 5BLD, Clock, and perhaps even Skewb removed from the list of events, but it is nice that they are able to offer such a diverse range of events for competitors.


The reason there is little overlap between OH and feet rankings is certainly not because of the marginally different solving skills required (ie, solving with slightly more efficiency and slightly less TPS).


I don't think it's irrelevant, I think it's a reasonable thought experiment when event removal is considered. The presumption should be to keep things the same, unless there are reasons otherwise - for feet there are indeed many reasons otherwise.
Also, people put hundreds of hours into practicing Rubik's Magic and Master Magic. Work was done and progress was made in those events as well, and sure, people complained that it was unfair.
FWIW, 7x7 (and 6x6 to a lesser extent) doesn't add very much in terms of solving skillset (although, I'd suggest still more than feet). I'd certainly be in favour of removing 7x7, and perhaps even 6x6.
To respond to this:
Feet growth:
Even though it didn't grow that much more than 3x3, it did grow more than it, which I think is a good enough reason to keep it.

Solving method:
I agree with you in that you must use more efficient f2l and a bunch more ll algs are required to be world class. I think that this makes the event unique.

Feet/OH overlap:
What is the reason for no overlap then?

Removal of magics:
Was there this much backlash though?
Also IMO magics had to be removed, as judging was impossible and it likely wasn't consistent all around the world.

Also, I would likr it if you did a session of feet, to at least try it out. As far as I know, you have never even tried the event, which I think causes bias.
 
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