[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[TDM]

Which is the best LL method for OH ?

Edit : Also do you think there can be other LL method that can better for OH ?

ZZ-d. Here are two other ways of permuting corners, but I think the first way is easier for beginners. It's also nice if you include phasing (intuitive or algs) as you then reduce the number of 2GLL algs needed from 84 to 30.

 

[RR]

ZZ-d. Here are two other ways of permuting corners, but I think the first way is easier for beginners. It's also nice if you include phasing as you then reduce the number of 2GLL algs needed from 84 to 30.

Is it better than COLL when OH ? And is it also fast with 2H ?

 

[TDM]

Is it better than COLL when OH ? And is it also fast with 2H ?

I would say so as you only need to add two extra L moves to permute corners, and by rotating you can make the algs <R,U,D> which is even easier. Also, with phasing, there are less algs needed than COLL.

 

[Suratha]

2mins 30seconds I just started yesterday and i'm using 2look oll and 2look pll for the LL. I'm thinking what should be my LL of my ZZ. COLL or WV ? Which is the best LL method for OH ?

There is no such method called 'best method' since every method has some advantages as well as disadvantages.For your average,it is easily possible to get under 60 seconds by using 2-look OLL and 2-look PLL.So don't think about the LL method now for OH now.Just practise and you can choose the LL method while you are averaging around 50 seconds.You can watch the videos listed below to get better.These videos are from asmallkitten(Phil Yu-ZZ OH and 2H solver).He is one of the fastest OH solvers.
i)Beginners guide to OH solving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0yG4vK1hM
ii)How to turn OH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_sHejYBzHU
iii)Increasing OH TPS(Turns Per Second): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5O7Ac5dFes
From these videos,you can learn many things related to OH.Hope this helps

 

[Nilsibert]

If you actually want to learn COLL for 2H solving (I advise against it), give yourself a DNF everytime you do the OLL instead of the COLL. That will force you to slow down and recognize the color pattern more thoughtfully.

It's called negative reinforcement, and it's worked for thousands of years.

Why do you advice against COLL? Recognition? Or alg length?

 

[RR]

There is no such method called 'best method' since every method has some advantages as well as disadvantages.For your average,it is easily possible to get under 60 seconds by using 2-look OLL and 2-look PLL.So don't think about the LL method now for OH now.Just practise and you can choose the LL method while you are averaging around 50 seconds.You can watch the videos listed below to get better.These videos are from asmallkitten(Phil Yu-ZZ OH and 2H solver).He is one of the fastest OH solvers.
i)Beginners guide to OH solving: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0yG4vK1hM
ii)How to turn OH: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_sHejYBzHU
iii)Increasing OH TPS(Turns Per Second): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5O7Ac5dFes
From these videos,you can learn many things related to OH.Hope this helps

Yes that's exactly what i need i suck at turning because i'm using 57mm cube. Still wating for the Mini Fangshi Shuangren

 

[mDiPalma]

Why do you advice against COLL? Recognition? Or alg length?

Once you learn COLL, you can never go back. Whenever you finish F2L, your brain automatically looks for the COLL case, and you have to conciously override that instinct to use the OLL. If I had a chance to restart my cubing from day one, I would never learn a single COLL case.

Also, OLL+PLL is significantly faster (>1 second) for 2H.

 

[RR]

Once you learn COLL, you can never go back. Whenever you finish F2L, your brain automatically looks for the COLL case, and you have to conciously override that instinct to use the OLL. If I had a chance to restart my cubing from day one, I would never learn a single COLL case.

Also, OLL+PLL is significantly faster (>1 second) for 2H.

Is it worth it to learn COLL for OH ?

 

[mDiPalma]

Is it worth it to learn COLL for OH ?

In my opinion, barely (or not at all). Here's the tradeoff:

2gen or really efficient OCLL case + PLL
vs
often unergonomic COLL + 2-gen EPLL

For me at least, the time corresponding to (COLL-OCLL) > (PLL-EPLL), meaning my investment is not worth the tradeoff.

OH EPLL is only 1 move less than PLL on average. And >2-gen PLLs can be executed nearly as fast as EPLLs with some practice (my A, T, and J perms are faster than my Z perms).

The only good thing about COLL is the increased skip chance.

 

[Nilsibert]

Once you learn COLL, you can never go back. Whenever you finish F2L, your brain automatically looks for the COLL case, and you have to conciously override that instinct to use the OLL. If I had a chance to restart my cubing from day one, I would never learn a single COLL case.

Also, OLL+PLL is significantly faster (>1 second) for 2H.

I'm not sure what's bad about not going back. Once you're comfortable with the cases, couldn't you start predicting the EPLL? I like the idea of COLL and I can do the H cases and most of the Pi ones already. Also COLL seems promising on big cubes.

 

[RR]

I'm not sure what's bad about not going back. Once you're comfortable with the cases, couldn't you start predicting the EPLL? I like the idea of COLL and I can do the H cases and most of the Pi ones already. Also COLL seems promising on big cubes.

What's your average using COLL and EPLL ?

Why others don't use sune and anti-sune in COLL ?

 

[Username]

Why others don't use sune and anti-sune in COLL ?

Because Sune and Anti sune are the fastest OCLL's, and it's not worth it to use COLL - EPLL instead of OCLL-PLL because of the speed of it

 

[Nilsibert]

What's your average using COLL and EPLL ?

Why others don't use sune and anti-sune in COLL ?

Oh I don't really time myself atm. Also since I only know H and about 3 Pi cases, I think it's not really possible to say what I average with COLL compared to OCLL.

 

[RR]

Because Sune and Anti sune are the fastest OCLL's, and it's not worth it to use COLL - EPLL instead of OCLL-PLL because of the speed of it

Oh so i only need 28 Algs for COLL if i will not use sune and anti-sune. That's nice

 

[mDiPalma]

I'm not sure what's bad about not going back. Once you're comfortable with the cases, couldn't you start predicting the EPLL? I like the idea of COLL and I can do the H cases and most of the Pi ones already. Also COLL seems promising on big cubes.

In my whole life, I've made a dozen or so of seriously misinformed decisions that hurt me in the end. Learning COLL is somewhere near the middle/bottom of that list.

But I suppose it's a realization that you have to come to on your own.

 

[Nilsibert]

In my whole life, I've made a dozen or so of seriously misinformed decisions that hurt me in the end. Learning COLL is somewhere near the middle/bottom of that list.

But I suppose it's a realization that you have to come to on your own.

But why is it bad? That's what interests me. Why would you want to go back to OCLL?

Also what would you recommend instead? Plain old OCLL/PLL or maybe winter variation or cls?

 

[kcl]

But why is it bad? That's what interests me. Why would you want to go back to OCLL?

Also what would you recommend instead? Plain old OCLL/PLL or maybe winter variation or cls?

WV can only help you. It's worth learning even for 2H.

 

[aznanimedude]

The only good thing about coll is giving you the background to learn ZZLL

 

[mDiPalma]

But why is it bad? That's what interests me. Why would you want to go back to OCLL?

Also what would you recommend instead? Plain old OCLL/PLL or maybe winter variation or cls?

{OCLL+PLL} + {easy WV+SV cases}

maybe also quickly check if your COLL will skip EPLL,
if yes, execute COLL,
if no, execute OCLL.

I might do a 1000 solve session with ^that^ state of mind. I know a bunch of "COLL" algs though, so it might prove harder for me than for you.

 

[Suratha]

Is it worth it to learn COLL for OH ?

You can do two things here: (there may be more)
i)Learn COLL cases for the OCLL case which you are slower at executing.
ii)You can learn the COLL for only the diagonal swap cases so that you can avoid E,N,V,Y perms which are slow for most people.This you can do for the slower OCLL for you.(except for sune and anti-sune)