[Help Thread] Roux Discussion and Help

[GuRoux]

Scramble: R2 B R' B D F' L' B' R D' R2 U L2 U F2 R2 U2 R2 F2 L2

x'
first block: M u r' R2 F' U' B
second block: r U' R U M2 U' R U2 M2 U' R U2 R'
cmll: U' L U L' U L U2 L'
LSE: U M' U2 M' U' M2 U2 M U2 M'

 

[Ross The Boss]

I need some help with practising. currently, i practise by slow solving (for look ahead), and by seeing what i need to do quikly, closeing my eyes, doing it, open eyes, see next thing, close eyes, do it (for recognition). i also practise FMC sometimes to try to lower my move count. im having trouble with first block BLD, though. i practise First block by planing the whole block then doing it, but i have been working on this for a long time (a few months) with very little improvement. So i was wondering, are there any drills or training exercises that i can do that will help me to eventually plan FB in less than 15 seconds, and help with transition to SB?

 

[GuRoux]

I need some help with practising. currently, i practise by slow solving (for look ahead), and by seeing what i need to do quikly, closeing my eyes, doing it, open eyes, see next thing, close eyes, do it (for recognition). i also practise FMC sometimes to try to lower my move count. im having trouble with first block BLD, though. i practise First block by planing the whole block then doing it, but i have been working on this for a long time (a few months) with very little improvement. So i was wondering, are there any drills or training exercises that i can do that will help me to eventually plan FB in less than 15 seconds, and help with transition to SB?

i don't think there's much you can do but keep practicing first block, for second block transition: I usually find and track the DR edge of the second block while solving the first block or , if I have enough time, incorporate the DR edge with first block memorization during the 15 second memorization time.

 

[Renslay]

About this solve:

scramble: D B2 U' B2 F2 D' B2 L2 U' R2 U B D' B2 R L2 U' L F U2 B2 D'

z'
B' M' F B' r B' (6)
M' U R U' M' U' R2 U R' U2 R U r' U' R (15)
U' F R U R' U' R U R' U' F' (11)
M' U M' U M' U2 M U2 M' U (10)

Is there a better way to do the second block? Or is it good enough?

 

[pijok]

M' U R U' M' U' R2 U R' U2 R U r' U' R

M' R' U r U' R2 U M2 U2 r' U R (12)

 

[Renslay]

M' R' U r U' R2 U M2 U2 r' U R (12)

Thanks!

 

[YddEd]

Scramble: F2 R U2 L D2 L2 D2 F2 U2 R' U2 B' D' L D2 R' D' U' B L B'
Inspection: z2 x
FB: R' U2 F' R U' M' B2 r B' (9)
SB: M' U2 r U r' U' M U2 M' U2 r' U' r (13)
CMLL: U L' U' L U' L' U2 L (8)
LSE: U2 M2 U' M' U M' U2 M' U2 M' U M2 U M U2 M2 U2 M' (18)
48 STM
15.46 PB
3.1 TPS

 

[GuRoux]

Scramble: F2 R U2 L D2 L2 D2 F2 U2 R' U2 B' D' L D2 R' D' U' B L B'
Inspection: z2 x
FB: R' U2 F' R U' M' B2 r B' (9)
SB: M' U2 r U r' U' M U2 M' U2 r' U' r (13)
CMLL: U L' U' L U' L' U2 L (8)
LSE: U2 M2 U' M' U M' U2 M' U2 M' U M2 U M U2 M2 U2 M' (18)
48 STM
15.46 PB
3.1 TPS

yours is the better solve

same scramble: F2 R U2 L D2 L2 D2 F2 U2 R' U2 B' D' L D2 R' D' U' B L B'
z2
FB: R E' R U' R' U' L' U' L U2 r' B
SB: r' U' R' U' R' r' U R U' R' U' R U2 R U R' U' R U R' U' R U R'
CMLL: L' U' L' U R U' L U x'
LSE: M U' M U' M' U2 M U M2 U2 M' U2 M2 U2 M'

59 moves , 13.46 seconds, 4.38 TPS

 

[Renslay]

Scramble: F2 R U2 L D2 L2 D2 F2 U2 R' U2 B' D' L D2 R' D' U' B L B'
Inspection: z2 x
FB: R' U2 F' R U' M' B2 r B' (9)
SB: M' U2 r U r' U' M U2 M' U2 r' U' r (13)
CMLL: U L' U' L U' L' U2 L (8)
LSE: U2 M2 U' M' U M' U2 M' U2 M' U M2 U M U2 M2 U2 M' (18)
48 STM
15.46 PB
3.1 TPS

Agreed with GuRoux, your solve is better (apart from the LSE). I got one of my longest CMLLs...
Anyway, nice job!

Here is a better LSE for you:
M2 U' M U M' U2 M' U2 M' U M2 U' (12)

My full solve:
y' z'
U M' U R' D2 U' r' F (8)
U2 r U r U M' U' R M U' M2 U2 R U' r' (15)
U2 U x' R U' R' U2 R' D R U2 R' D' R2 U R' x (15)
U2 M' U' M2 U2 M' U2 M2 (8)

46 STM
14.92
3.08 TPS

 

[YddEd]

How do you think I should improve my LSE?

 

[Renslay]

How do you think I should improve my LSE?

- Work on efficiency.
- Learn fingertricks; I'm sure there are plenty of them on youtube.
- Learn all the EO cases; even the "y2-mirrored" ones; e.g. if UB-DB is well-oriented, then M' U* M*, if UF-DF is well-oriented, then M U* M* (where U* can be either U or U').
- Most of the EO cases the solution brings you to the easiest "UB-DB oriented" or "UF-DF oriented" case. Learn which will you get. For example, if UF-UB is misoriented, I use M' U M U' and I know that leads me to the UB-DB oriented case. If DF-DB is misoriented, I use M' U M' U', which leads me to the UF-DF oriented case.
- Improve 4a) to 4b) transitions; for example, if UB-DB is well-oriented, you can chose from 4 different solutions. In many cases one of them helps in 4b) more (like putting the UL/UR edge to DF/DB for example, so 4b) is 3 moves at most).
- Experiment with "misoriented centers" EO.
- Examine existing solutions. What would be your solution? What is his/her solution? Which solution is shorter? Why?

EDIT:

For example, in your case:
Scramble: F2 R U2 L D2 L2 D2 F2 U2 R' U2 B' D' L D2 R' D' U' B L B'
Inspection: z2 x
FB: R' U2 F' R U' M' B2 r B' (9)
SB: M' U2 r U r' U' M U2 M' U2 r' U' r (13)
CMLL: U L' U' L U' L' U2 L (8)

LSE:
M2 U' leads us to UF-DF oriented, so M U* M* will be next
M U M' leads us to a quick (although, not short) UL/UR position (4a finished here)
U2 M' U2 M' puts UL/UR to DF-DB
U M2 U' solves UL/UR (4b finished here)
M-perm skip.

 

[Bestsimple]

Rensley do you have any tips on breaking barriers?

 

[Renslay]

Rensley do you have any tips on breaking barriers?

It depends, which barriers.
I think you can find breaking barriers tips here:
http://wafflelikescubes.webs.com/sub15guidetoroux.htm
and here:
http://rouxtorial.webs.com/miscellaneous.htm

 

[Bestsimple]

Breaking sub 12

 

[Renslay]

Breaking sub 12

I think I can't give you any useful advices... But I'll try.
(I'm barely sub15 myself).

- Make a slow motion video of your solves (slow down e.g. 3-times, a 60 fps camera would be good), it helps you examine your solves: tiny lock-ups, transition and lookahead problems, break-downs. A sub-12 break-down should be like 5.5-3-3.5 (according to the link above), but I think a 6.5-2-3.5 is easier.
- Try to do 4a and 4b in a single, continous step. Learn the easy cases from here:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?38176-Roux-Misoriented-Centers-Table
- Experiment non-matching blocks (and non-matching CMLL recognition - there are methods for that).
- During inspection it would be good if you can plan the whole FB, maybe the location of some of the SB pieces as well. Try to do both block without stop (transition from FB to SB is one of the most essential step in the whole solve).

EDIT:
- learn KCLL algorithms (different CMLL algorithms for different EO), so you can influence your EO to a simplier case.
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?21210-KCLL

Few other useful links:
hyperorientation:
http://home.comcast.net/~quadricode/hyperorientations/
4b to 4c transition:
http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?35350-Roux-4b-to-4c-Transition

 

[YddEd]

Sorry, I was supposed to say 'what should I do to lower my LSE movecount?'.

 

[Renslay]

Sorry, I was supposed to say 'what should I do to lower my LSE movecount?'.

I think the easiest way would be if you write here a few LSE examples. Then we can help you improve it, with explanations.
You can find LSE scramblers in many online and offline timer, for example in csTimer (3x3x3 -> last six edges) or qqTimer (3x3x3 subsets -> Roux-generator)
http://www.cstimer.net/timer.php
http://www.qqtimer.net/

 

[YddEd]

I guess I'll just quickly do some then.
U2 M U M U M2 U2 M U' M U2 M' U M2 U' M2 U' M' U M' U2 M U M2 U
U M' U2 M' U2 M U M' U' M' U2 M' U' M2 U' (15)

U M2 U M2 U2 M' U' M2 U M U M' U2 M' U2 M2 U2 M2 U2 M' U M2 U2 M' U'
M U M' U2 M' U2 M U M2 U M2 U2 (12)

M U2 M' U2 M U' M U2 M2 U M U M U M2 U M2 U M' U M' U' M U2 M2
U2 M' U2 M U M' U' M' U2 M U' M2 U M' U2 M (16)

U' M2 U M U2 M2 U2 M2 U2 M2 U M2 U' M' U' M U M2 U M2 U' M' U2 M2 U'
M2 U' M U M U' M' U2 M U M2 U' M2 (13)

U2 M2 U M U M' U2 M U2 M' U2 M2 U M2 U M U' M' U2 M' U2 M' U' M U'
M U2 M' U M U M' U M2 U2 M U' M2 U M2 (15)

3.73, 4.05, 5.48, 4.90, 4.93 in order.
My LSE seems pretty slow.

Then I did a CMLL + LSE ao12.

Spoiler: CMLL + LSE

Average of 12: 9.98
1. 12.85 M' U2 L2 D R2 F2 R2 B2 F2 U B2 D B' L B2 R D2 F R2 B R'
2. 8.05 L2 D2 R2 F2 R2 F2 R2 D' L2 B2 U L' B D B' D' L R2 B2
3. 11.05 M2 L U2 L2 B2 R D2 R' B2 L B2 L U R' U F' L' R
4. 10.26 M' R' U2 R U2 R' U2 R2 U2 R' U2 R' U' F R B F' U' B'
5. 9.56 M R2 B2 R' B2 U2 L B2 R2 F2 L' F2 D L' D' F R F' L' F2
6. (6.22) M' L' U' B' U B L U' R2 L2 F2 D' R2 L2 U B2 U
7. 10.51 M' U L2 R2 D R2 B2 L2 U' R2 F2 R2 F' L' U' L U F U'
8. 11.66 M2 F D' R' D' F' L B' U2 F L' U2 B2 D2 F2 U2 R F2 B2 R' F2
9. 8.02 U2 B2 F2 L' F2 R U2 R' F' L B' L B' F
10. (13.25) M' L2 F2 D' L2 B2 U B2 D R2 D R2 F R2 B L' D2 B' R2 F'
11. 8.56 M2 R L' F' L2 F' R L D F2 D' R2 U' R2 F2 R2 U2 L2 D2
12. 9.26 F' D2 B R2 D' L' D R2 U2 B2 D2 R2 D2 B D2 F R2 U2

What do you guys think about the CMLL+LSE times?

 

[Renslay]

Okay, these are not bad results. I would do nearly the same.

But for example, if you play a bit with non-matching centers, you could get for example:

I guess I'll just quickly do some then.
U2 M U M U M2 U2 M U' M U2 M' U M2 U' M2 U' M' U M' U2 M U M2 U
U M' U2 M' U2 M U M' U' M' U2 M' U' M2 U' (15)

M U M' U' M U2 M' U2 M' U M' (11)

M U - misoriented centers, but now UB-DB is oriented
M' U' M (solve EO - note that I put UR into its place on purpose (UB)
U2 M' U2 M' U - solve UL-UR
M' - mperm

U M2 U M2 U2 M' U' M2 U M U M' U2 M' U2 M2 U2 M2 U2 M' U M2 U2 M' U'
M U M' U2 M' U2 M U M2 U M2 U2 (12)

That's pretty good.

M U2 M' U2 M U' M U2 M2 U M U M U M2 U M2 U M' U M' U' M U2 M2
U2 M' U2 M U M' U' M' U2 M U' M2 U M' U2 M (16)

Couldn't find better. Alternative:
M2 U2 M' U2 M' U' M' U M U2 M' U' M' U2 M' U (16)

M2 U2 M' U2 M' U' M' - EO, but instead of UL-UR, we will solve UF-UB (treated as UL-UR) in the next step
U M U2 M' U' - solve UF-UB
M' U2 M' U - solve the remaining 4 edges, AUF

Alternative2:
U2 M' U2 M U M' U' M' U2 M U' M2 U M' U2 M (16)

U' M2 U M U2 M2 U2 M2 U2 M2 U M2 U' M' U' M U M2 U M2 U' M' U2 M2 U'
M2 U' M U M U' M' U2 M U M2 U' M2 (13)

Good.

U2 M2 U M U M' U2 M U2 M' U2 M2 U M2 U M U' M' U2 M' U2 M' U' M U'
M U2 M' U M U M' U M2 U2 M U' M2 U M2 (15)

M' U2 M U M' U M U M2 U2 M (11)

with mis-oriented centers:
M' U2 M - rearrange the EO in a way that 4b will be very easy. Used this table: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?38176-Roux-Misoriented-Centers-Table k10 after a U' setup (U' + UM'U2M) Maybe it is worth to learn the easy cases, such as column j,k,l,m.
U M' U M U' - solve UL/UR
U2 M2 U2 M - mperm

I think your move count is pretty okay if you use the standard method. You can improve your times with smoother transition, lookahead, fingertricks, increasing TPS. If you want to decrease your move count, learn mis-oriented centers, and tricks for 4a+4b (like the table above).

Your sub-5 with LSE and ~10 CMLL+LSE shows that your CMLL seems a bit slow. Are those 2-look CMLLs?

 

[pijok]

I guess I'll just quickly do some then.
U2 M U M U M2 U2 M U' M U2 M' U M2 U' M2 U' M' U M' U2 M U M2 U
U M' U2 M' U2 M U M' U' M' U2 M' U' M2 U' (15)

U M2 U M2 U2 M' U' M2 U M U M' U2 M' U2 M2 U2 M2 U2 M' U M2 U2 M' U'
M U M' U2 M' U2 M U M2 U M2 U2 (12)

M U2 M' U2 M U' M U2 M2 U M U M U M2 U M2 U M' U M' U' M U2 M2
U2 M' U2 M U M' U' M' U2 M U' M2 U M' U2 M (16)

U' M2 U M U2 M2 U2 M2 U2 M2 U M2 U' M' U' M U M2 U M2 U' M' U2 M2 U'
M2 U' M U M U' M' U2 M U M2 U' M2 (13)

U2 M2 U M U M' U2 M U2 M' U2 M2 U M2 U M U' M' U2 M' U2 M' U' M U'
M U2 M' U M U M' U M2 U2 M U' M2 U M2 (15)

3.73, 4.05, 5.48, 4.90, 4.93 in order.
My LSE seems pretty slow.

Movecount is okay for speedsolves. So maybe just turn faster. Fingertricks?

Then I did a CMLL + LSE ao12.

Spoiler: CMLL + LSE

Average of 12: 9.98
1. 12.85 M' U2 L2 D R2 F2 R2 B2 F2 U B2 D B' L B2 R D2 F R2 B R'
2. 8.05 L2 D2 R2 F2 R2 F2 R2 D' L2 B2 U L' B D B' D' L R2 B2
3. 11.05 M2 L U2 L2 B2 R D2 R' B2 L B2 L U R' U F' L' R
4. 10.26 M' R' U2 R U2 R' U2 R2 U2 R' U2 R' U' F R B F' U' B'
5. 9.56 M R2 B2 R' B2 U2 L B2 R2 F2 L' F2 D L' D' F R F' L' F2
6. (6.22) M' L' U' B' U B L U' R2 L2 F2 D' R2 L2 U B2 U
7. 10.51 M' U L2 R2 D R2 B2 L2 U' R2 F2 R2 F' L' U' L U F U'
8. 11.66 M2 F D' R' D' F' L B' U2 F L' U2 B2 D2 F2 U2 R F2 B2 R' F2
9. 8.02 U2 B2 F2 L' F2 R U2 R' F' L B' L B' F
10. (13.25) M' L2 F2 D' L2 B2 U B2 D R2 D R2 F R2 B L' D2 B' R2 F'
11. 8.56 M2 R L' F' L2 F' R L D F2 D' R2 U' R2 F2 R2 U2 L2 D2
12. 9.26 F' D2 B R2 D' L' D R2 U2 B2 D2 R2 D2 B D2 F R2 U2

What do you guys think about the CMLL+LSE times?

Your cmll is slow