[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[mDiPalma]

Cool. I am ~5s slower with OH too, but I average 17 OH and 12 2H!
DO you plan full EOLine + 2x2 during inspection? I only plan EOLine and I force myself to track the 2x2 block pieces, but I think I will be able to plan full "zeoline" with some (maybe a lot of) practice. If so, what do you look for first? Blockbuilding or EO?

I average 12.5 TH and 18 OH, but with ZZ-D I am much slower (23 TH and 28 OH).

In normal ZZ, I just plan the EO during inspection, so I can look out for pairs/blocks that are formed during the EO phase, and preserve them during the LINE phase. It's faster and more fun for me that way.

But in ZZ-D, the probability of part of the DBL 2x2x1 being formed during the EOLine is very small. So my traditional approach is rarely effective. That's why in videos of my solves, EOLine takes longer than it normally should (3-4 seconds TH, 4-5 seconds OH).

But I think with enough deliberate practice, I should be able to plan EOLine and trace the DBL block pieces with relative ease.

 

[TDM]

EOLine: 13.52, 17.86, 8.80, 8.89, 7.52, 12.29, 11.19, 8.60, 11.98, 14.62, 9.48, 10.40 = 11.26
F2L: 26.83, 23.37, 27.15, 34.34, 19.06, 29.64, 24.87, 24.50, 22.24, 25.06, 27.72, 23.31 = 25.67
LL: 4.96, 8.68, 6.46, 9.53, 8.24, 8.65, 7.27, 6.48, 5.67, 11.69, 10.12, 12.73 = 8.37
Total: 45.31, 49.91, 42.41, 52.76, 34.82, 50.58, 43.33, 39.58, 39.89, 51.37, 47.32, 46.44 = 45.31

OH. Which should I work on more, EOLine or F2L?

 

[aznanimedude]

wow i haven't been here in awhile. O_O

how fun is ZZ-pokemon/porkyv2/Grumpig?

i need something to occupy my time while i ride the subway to and from work

 

[mDiPalma]

@TDM, F2L

@azn, really fun (once you get a reasonable idea about which case requires which algorithm set)

 

[aznanimedude]

Challenge accepted

 

[ryn ball]

Hello ZZ solvers what advice can you give at my F2L? here's my breakdown


solve step 1 step 2 step 3 step 4 total
1 4.15 8.07 2.68 4.29 19.19
2 3.78 11.03 3.05 2.96 20.82
3 4.17 10.06 2.94 3.98 21.15
4 4.60 11.20 2.69 3.71 22.20
5 3.68 9.35 3.48 4.24 20.75
6 4.84 10.26 2.78 1.37 19.25
7 2.37 11.73 2.88 2.06 19.04
8 2.88 12.01 2.36 3.67 20.92
9 3.82 8.65 3.70 3.22 19.39
10 4.67 8.50 2.07 4.04 19.28
11 2.29 12.30 2.23 2.85 19.67
12 2.33 10.11 2.05 2.51 17.00


best: 2.29 8.07 2.05 1.37 17.00
worst: 4.84 12.30 3.70 4.29 22.20
avg: 3.63 10.27 2.74 3.24 19.89
std: 24.8% 13.3% 18.1% 27.2% 6.5%

solves:12 avg:19.89 best:17.00 worst:22.20 std:6.5%

I'm inconsistent sub-20 solver, do you guys prefer completing the whole block face then moving to the opposite face in F2L?

Thanks!

 

[aznanimedude]

Yeah. I'm around your times but I pretty much always do one side at a time. There are exceptions if its just that blatantly easy/obvious but those don't happen very much and are case by case

 

[ryn ball]

thanks for the tip aznanimedude, I will practice this approach in preparation also if I fully adopt zz-porky v1/v2

 

[mDiPalma]

ZZ Cuber Style Compilation

Hey, I figured if we can combine the best parts of all the ZZ speedcubers, then we can get an AWESOME ZZ cubing style.

So I tried my best at combining the best parts of asmallkitten, uvafan, Cride5, aznanimedude, and porkynator. With their inspiration, I got a 19.19 solve on my first try!

Can you figure which part of the solve corresponds to which ZZer? You may have to check out their YouTube Channels to do so!

Spoiler: Style Compilation

Haha, no hard feelings. I just took the most notable element of each cuber and hyperbolized it. If this offends anyone, I'll remove the video and the post. Peace.

 

[TDM]

I was going to PM mDiPalma this, but I thought I could get help from more people if I posted here.

What I'm trying to say is, although ZZ-D is intended to be less efficient than standard ZZ, I believe your F2L is taking more moves than it should.

You should be able to build each block in 12 moves. Add that to EOLINE and CP, and you can easily be on 2GLL by your 40th move.

One problem I've always had is efficiency at blockbuilding (which is why I'm so bad with Roux/Petrus). I can never do a block in 12 moves unless I'm very lucky. Here's an Mo3 (of moves) of how I'd solve without JARCS (which I used for the EOLine in the solve in the example solve thread) (I don't know the 2GLLs though, but that's not important for this). I only use ZZ for OH - although that could change soon if I decide I don't like Roux - so it's mostly L and U moves.

Spoiler

B2 D2 R U2 R D2 L B2 R' U2 R F' D U2 F2 R' D' R2 D B' U2
z y2 // Inspection
U' z' U z U B' l' U l y L' y' D' L' D' // EOLine (11)
L U L' U L2 z' U z U L U' L' U L U L' // LF2L (14)
z' L2 U' z' U L' D' L [z l' x'] // CP
L2 U' L' U2 L U' L' L' U L U L' U L U L' U L // LF2L (18)
L' U' L U' L U L U' L' U L U L2 U' L' // 2GLL

L' F2 R' F' U2 D' R' L U L2 U L2 D2 F2 R2 B2 D' F2 U
z y2 // Inspection
[U D'] L' x U x' L' U' z' U2 z u y' // EOLine (8)
U2 z' U2 z L U L' z' U z U2 L' U' L' U' L' U L U' L' U' L // LF2L (18)
z' L' U' L2 z' U L' D2 L [z' l' x'] // CP
U' L U L' U L' L' U' L U2 L' U L U' L' U L U L' U L // LF2L (21)
U2 L' U2 L2 U L' U L U2 L' U' L' U L U2 // 2GLL

R' F' U2 D2 R' U R' F' R B U B2 D2 B2 R2 F2 L2 D' F2 U' D2
z y2 z' // Inspection
U z B' F u L' y' L D2 L2 u y' // EOLine (9)
U2 L U' L' U L' z U2 z' U2 L U L z U2 z' U2 L U L' // LF2L (16)
z' z' U L' D2 L [z' l' x'] // CP
L U L U2 L' U2 L U' L' L' U' L U L' U' L U L' U2 L U' L' U2 L // LF2L (24)
U' U2 L' U2 L U L' U L U L' U2 L U L' U L U' // 2GLL

EOline: 9.3
First F2L: 16
Second F2L: 21
The last two scrambles had very easy EOLines, so you can't really see what I'm usually like from them, but the blocks are normal and mine are no where near 12 moves. In the last example, one of them is twice that, and my shortest is 14. How do you get so efficient at blockbuilding?

 

[aznanimedude]

If my part of it is what I think it is. I hate you full h0m0 <\3

Also what I've heard works wonders although I never do it is FMC. My blocks are horrible though qq

 

[mDiPalma]

haha you bet!

 

[porkynator]

Ok, I'm the BLD-EOLine part (which I actually practice once in a whie ), but I have no idea about the others. I thought Phil would be an OH part, but no

I was going to PM mDiPalma this, but I thought I could get help from more people if I posted here.
One problem I've always had is efficiency at blockbuilding (which is why I'm so bad with Roux/Petrus). I can never do a block in 12 moves unless I'm very lucky. Here's an Mo3 (of moves) of how I'd solve without JARCS (which I used for the EOLine in the solve in the example solve thread) (I don't know the 2GLLs though, but that's not important for this). I only use ZZ for OH - although that could change soon if I decide I don't like Roux - so it's mostly L and U moves.

Spoiler

B2 D2 R U2 R D2 L B2 R' U2 R F' D U2 F2 R' D' R2 D B' U2
z y2 // Inspection
U' z' U z U B' l' U l y L' y' D' L' D' // EOLine (11)
L U L' U L2 z' U z U L U' L' U L U L' // LF2L (14)
z' L2 U' z' U L' D' L [z l' x'] // CP
L2 U' L' U2 L U' L' L' U L U L' U L U L' U L // LF2L (18)
L' U' L U' L U L U' L' U L U L2 U' L' // 2GLL

L' F2 R' F' U2 D' R' L U L2 U L2 D2 F2 R2 B2 D' F2 U
z y2 // Inspection
[U D'] L' x U x' L' U' z' U2 z u y' // EOLine (8)
U2 z' U2 z L U L' z' U z U2 L' U' L' U' L' U L U' L' U' L // LF2L (18)
z' L' U' L2 z' U L' D2 L [z' l' x'] // CP
U' L U L' U L' L' U' L U2 L' U L U' L' U L U L' U L // LF2L (21)
U2 L' U2 L2 U L' U L U2 L' U' L' U L U2 // 2GLL

R' F' U2 D2 R' U R' F' R B U B2 D2 B2 R2 F2 L2 D' F2 U' D2
z y2 z' // Inspection
U z B' F u L' y' L D2 L2 u y' // EOLine (9)
U2 L U' L' U L' z U2 z' U2 L U L z U2 z' U2 L U L' // LF2L (16)
z' z' U L' D2 L [z' l' x'] // CP
L U L U2 L' U2 L U' L' L' U' L U L' U' L U L' U2 L U' L' U2 L // LF2L (24)
U' U2 L' U2 L U L' U L U L' U2 L U L' U L U' // 2GLL

EOline: 9.3
First F2L: 16
Second F2L: 21
The last two scrambles had very easy EOLines, so you can't really see what I'm usually like from them, but the blocks are normal and mine are no where near 12 moves. In the last example, one of them is twice that, and my shortest is 14. How do you get so efficient at blockbuilding?

For blockbuilding, you can practice slow solves, counting the moves instead of timing. About one year ago I did a few avg100 for that (some posts after my first approach to ZZ-d). IIRC, I was around 32~33 HTM for EOLine + F2L, mDiPalma about the same (maybe ~0.5 better than me) and Pyjam around 1~2 fewer moves, but he also did phasing.
BTW, they were slow well-planned solves; on normal speedsolves it would be a bit more.
You can also look at some example solve ("The Example Solve Thread" is full of ZZ solutions, although sometimes they are more FMC-style).
But I think you first need to improve your EOLine: it should be solve in 9 moves at most. You will only have to learn a few more tricks, like correcting 6 bad edges by doing 3 (and make one new bad edge) + 4. This might help you.

 

[uvafan]

I'm the fast scrambling I think lolol. That video is hilarious.

 

[mDiPalma]

Correct! Was I too obvious?

The ridiculously fast scrambling was uvafan. I don't understand how anyone can scramble so quickly (and still get the scramble right). I just made up a hand scramble that might appear legitimate.

The 100 x/x' rotations during inspection were supposed to be Phil. But you are right, Porky, I should have done OH!

The BLD EOL was Porkynator. I had originally planned to do BLD x-eoline, but I couldn't find a good one. (especially with all those silly x rotations wasting my inspection )

Conrad was the somewhat non-ergonomic F2L that kept switching back from R to L. I didn't do very well on his part.

And aznanimedude was the really weird fingertricks at the end.

I'm sorry I didn't include anyone else, but there are only a few ZZers with cubing videos (and there are even less steps to the ZZ Method!).


Well, every cuber has their own distinct style, and it's never a bad thing. It's just funny to hyperbolize.

Do I have any silly cubing habits? Please tell!

 

[BaMiao]

I look forward to the day that I'm good enough to be satirized by mDiPalma.

Though, if you ever saw me solve, you'd probably do it by using your fingers to keep track of bad edges during inspection. Despite my time with the method, I still haven't broken the habit.

 

[ryn ball]

haha nice mDiPalma, this made my day

 

[TDM]

For blockbuilding, you can practice slow solves, counting the moves instead of timing. About one year ago I did a few avg100 for that (some posts after my first approach to ZZ-d). IIRC, I was around 32~33 HTM for EOLine + F2L, mDiPalma about the same (maybe ~0.5 better than me) and Pyjam around 1~2 fewer moves, but he also did phasing.
BTW, they were slow well-planned solves; on normal speedsolves it would be a bit more.
You can also look at some example solve ("The Example Solve Thread" is full of ZZ solutions, although sometimes they are more FMC-style).
But I think you first need to improve your EOLine: it should be solve in 9 moves at most. You will only have to learn a few more tricks, like correcting 6 bad edges by doing 3 (and make one new bad edge) + 4. This might help you.

Thanks! Yea, I know how I should do 6 edges, I just usually don't try to find EVERY misoriented edge during inspection, because I can't plan EO in 15 seconds, so I'll usually just find 4 and plan a way to orient them. I'll only look for more if I have a lot of time, which is why I don't often see if there are 6 or not.

 

[Nilsibert]

I've read a lot of this thread, but I'm not sure if this was discussed greatly or just a little: In which order do you usually do the F2L? Whatever's best at the moment? I'm trying hard not to develop a bias towards blocks nor pairs in the beginning. At the same time, it seems to make sense to start out with a block, then solve its pair because half of the time you can use the free side to set up an easy 3 move insert or an easy pair. On the other hand, having a side fully solved can lead to bad block cases. For example if I have a block made with the cross piece and the corner, and the edge it pairs up with is next to it, separating and solving them can take a lot of moves because I'm restricted to one side to use for hiding pieces.
Also, whenever I time myself, which is quite rare, I'm lost during F2l because it's so many pieces to consider, and I waste many great cases because I don't realize them. ZZ is great fun to learn and practice though and I'm so happy I finally had the guts to switch to it and "throw away" the practice I needed to finally get sub 20 with CFOP, but it seems it will take quite a long time to get good with it. I'll keep practicing because even if I feel my solves are really bad and inefficient, I'm still sub 30 or even sub 25 half the time

 

[aznanimedude]

Are my finger tricks at the end really that weird? XD also that split second pause after I finish before I hit the spacebar, super on point QQ

Edit: also to answer the question about f2l, I always make it a point to finish one side before doing the other side block barring cases that are in my face easily obvious