[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

Egide said:
"TheNextFeliks", l'd advice you to go straight into ZZ-b, l also think that it has a lot of potential and all the algorithms can be Sub 2s (at least the ones l use).
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Personally, I wouldn't unless you're going to use ZZ-a.
TheNextFeliks said:
O
R2 U2 R U2 R2 U2 R2 U2 R U2 R2
R U R' U R' U' R' U R U' R' U' R2 U R

H
R' U' R U' R' U R U' R2 U' R' U' R' U R U R U' R
R' U' R U' R' U2 R U R U2 R' U' R U' R'
U' R U2 R' U' R U' R' U' R' U' R U' R' U2 R
R U2 R' U' R U' R' U' R' U' R U' R' U2 R

T
R' U R U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R U2 R
U2 R' U2 R2 U' R U' R U' R U' R' U2 R2 U R2
R U2 R' U' R U' R2 U2 R U R' U R
U2 R' U2 R U R' U R2 U2 R' U' R U' R' U'

U
U R' U2 R U R' U R U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R'
R2 U R2 U2 R' U' R U' R U' R U' R2 U2 R'
R' U' R U' R' U2 R2 U R' U R U2 R'
U2 R U R' U R U2 R2 U' R U' R' U2 R

L
U2 R' U2 R U2 R U R' U' R' U R U2 R U2 R'
U2 R' U' R U' R' U R U' R' U R U' R' U2 R
R' U' R U' R' U2 R U2 R' U2 R U R' U R
R' U2 R U R' U R U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R

P
U R' U2 R U R' U' R2 U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2 U R
U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R' U' R U2 R' U' R U' R'
U2 R' U' R U R U2 R' U' R U' R2 U2 R
U2 R U2 R2 U' R U' R' U2 R U R U' R'

S
U' R U' R2 U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R' U' R U' R2
U' R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R' U R' U R
U' R2 U R U R2 U' R' U' R2 U' R U' R'
U' R U2 R2 U' R' U' R' U R U R2 U' R'

A
R' U R U2 R' U' R U' R' U' R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R2
R' U2 R2 U R2 U R U' R U' R'
R2 U R U' R' U2 R' U' R2 U R U R2 U' R2 U' R2
U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R U' R U2 R' U' R U' R'

I mirrored the algs. Seems like a cool method.
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Thanks! I'll update my post to include them.
 
TDM said:
Personally, I wouldn't unless you're going to use ZZ-a.

Thanks! I'll update my post to include them.
Click to expand...

No problem. Just threw them in Conrad Rider's Alg Translator.

I think I might learn this. Cuts down the number of 2gll algs. Feels pretty fast. I'll stick with zz-porky v1 but v2 could be a good extension.
 
TheNextFeliks said:
No problem. Just threw them in Conrad Rider's Alg Translator.
Click to expand...
I didn't know that existed. It looks really useful.
I think I might learn this. Cuts down the number of 2gll algs. Feels pretty fast. I'll stick with zz-porky v1 but v2 could be a good extension.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this method is only really meant to reduce the number of algs needed whilst not slowing down too much (ZZ-porky v2 and 2GLL are faster). And I've finished the <R,U> sections now (including Pi recognition).
 
Updated a few things. Questions:
1- Should I include pictures for each case? I left it as a description because the colours in images will be different during a solve, but I can do an image for each case if it makes it easier to learn. It won't be too difficult.
2- How many people are using/thinking of using this method other than me?
3- Can you think of ways to improve the method?
 
TheNextFeliks said:
Question: how much potential do you think zz has? Sub-7?
Click to expand...

The thing about ZZ2H is that transitioning between L and R can be awkward, EOLine can be very awkward with fingertricks, and you simply have to solve more pieces after EOLine then you do after cross. Also, although ZZ-a,ZZ-b, and ZZ-d sound great in theory, recognition is very difficult in practice. While ZZ is great for OH, for 2H, I don't think it has the potential of CFOP or Roux. I'd love to be proven wrong, though. :)
 
uvafan said:
The thing about ZZ2H is that transitioning between L and R can be awkward, EOLine can be very awkward with fingertricks, and you simply have to solve more pieces after EOLine then you do after cross. Also, although ZZ-a,ZZ-b, and ZZ-d sound great in theory, recognition is very difficult in practice. While ZZ is great for OH, for 2H, I don't think it has the potential of CFOP or Roux. I'd love to be proven wrong, though. :)
Click to expand...

Lol. Let's try. But I think ocll/pll or coll/epll. But yeah. Roux and CFOP I kinda think have more potential.
 
can I get some tips4splits?

Code: 
# EOL F2L LL1 LL2 total  
1 2.61 7.41 1.50 0.35 11.87  
2 2.59 7.65 4.59 0.17 15.00  
3 2.46 5.14 0.58 3.92 12.10  
4 3.04 8.24 1.27 1.82 14.37  
5 2.42 6.48 1.78 2.06 12.74
 
uvafan said:
The thing about ZZ2H is that transitioning between L and R can be awkward, EOLine can be very awkward with fingertricks, and you simply have to solve more pieces after EOLine then you do after cross. Also, although ZZ-a,ZZ-b, and ZZ-d sound great in theory, recognition is very difficult in practice. While ZZ is great for OH, for 2H, I don't think it has the potential of CFOP or Roux. I'd love to be proven wrong, though. :)
Click to expand...

I'd say I agree and disagree. You say that transitioning between L and R is awkward, but there is no way it is more awkward than doing cube rotations in CFOP. In fact, the great strength of ZZ is lack of awkwardness in F2L.

Also, ZZ is still an evolving method. I don't think we've seen everything that is possible with it. Will it eventually be on the same level as CFOP? I'm not sure, but I just cube for fun, anyway.
 
TheNextFeliks said:
What are ll1 and ll2? I would say eoline.
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I don't use a consistent LL method. they mean zzll, coll/epll, oll/pll, wv/pll, 2gll, etc.

Also, I did a 2.69 EOL avg50:

2.48, 3.12, 1.79, 3.53, 2.33, 2.48, 3.65, 2.17, 3.81, 2.23, 3.21, 2.40, 2.87, 2.09, 2.71, 3.91, 3.90, 1.88, 2.86, 5.03, 2.23, 3.04, 2.04, 2.88, 1.74, 3.36, 2.47, 2.05, 1.33, 2.73, 3.30, 1.03, 3.72, 3.00, 2.78, 2.72, 2.55, 3.19, 2.52, 3.81, 1.56, 3.11, 2.04, 2.12, 2.40, 2.28, 1.05, 3.64, 3.14, 2.44

Is this slow? How do I improve it?
 
mDiPalma said:
I don't use a consistent LL method. they mean zzll, coll/epll, oll/pll, wv/pll, 2gll, etc.

Also, I did a 2.69 EOL avg50:

2.48, 3.12, 1.79, 3.53, 2.33, 2.48, 3.65, 2.17, 3.81, 2.23, 3.21, 2.40, 2.87, 2.09, 2.71, 3.91, 3.90, 1.88, 2.86, 5.03, 2.23, 3.04, 2.04, 2.88, 1.74, 3.36, 2.47, 2.05, 1.33, 2.73, 3.30, 1.03, 3.72, 3.00, 2.78, 2.72, 2.55, 3.19, 2.52, 3.81, 1.56, 3.11, 2.04, 2.12, 2.40, 2.28, 1.05, 3.64, 3.14, 2.44

Is this slow? How do I improve it?
Click to expand...

Not slow at all. I avg double that maybe more. Idk.
 
mDiPalma said:
I don't use a consistent LL method. they mean zzll, coll/epll, oll/pll, wv/pll, 2gll, etc.

Also, I did a 2.69 EOL avg50:

2.48, 3.12, 1.79, 3.53, 2.33, 2.48, 3.65, 2.17, 3.81, 2.23, 3.21, 2.40, 2.87, 2.09, 2.71, 3.91, 3.90, 1.88, 2.86, 5.03, 2.23, 3.04, 2.04, 2.88, 1.74, 3.36, 2.47, 2.05, 1.33, 2.73, 3.30, 1.03, 3.72, 3.00, 2.78, 2.72, 2.55, 3.19, 2.52, 3.81, 1.56, 3.11, 2.04, 2.12, 2.40, 2.28, 1.05, 3.64, 3.14, 2.44

Is this slow? How do I improve it?
Click to expand...

I'll do one tomorrow and see what I get. I think I'm in the low 2s but not sure.

BaMiao said:
I'd say I agree and disagree. You say that transitioning between L and R is awkward, but there is no way it is more awkward than doing cube rotations in CFOP. In fact, the great strength of ZZ is lack of awkwardness in F2L.

Also, ZZ is still an evolving method. I don't think we've seen everything that is possible with it. Will it eventually be on the same level as CFOP? I'm not sure, but I just cube for fun, anyway.
Click to expand...

Yes, the effect is about equivalent to rotations, perhaps, but people assume that there is no equivalent to rotations in ZZ, so my point is still valid. Yeah, who knows about the potential, that was just my best guess.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think ZZ has the same potential of CFOP and Roux, is just that there aren't many people trying to get fast with it.
EOLine can be planned finger trick friendly instead of efficient during inspection (that's what I often do).
F2L is cool and, since it is blockbuilding, it can be very efficient.
For LL you can use an incredible amount of tricks (Phasing, WV, CPLS, ZZ-d, some ZBLLs) to get lots of skips.
These are the reasons why I think ZZ has a lot of potential, but It obviously has its downsides.
 
I did an OH EOLine + First 2x2x1 avg100, using a fixed orientation and solving always the BLD block. At first I was discouraged, because I was kind of slower, but then I managed to almost catch up with my times when I solved EOLine + first 2x2x1 without caring about orientation or which block. I did this because that will be what I will do for ZZ-d.

number of times: 100/100
best time: 3.24
worst time: 10.47
best avg5: 4.74 (σ = 0.22)
best avg12: 5.15 (σ = 0.78)
best avg100: 6.64 (σ = 1.16)

On the topic "alternative ways to solve the cube when you are in <R, U>", has anybody thought of 2x2x1 + CLS + L5E? It's probably worse than F2L + 2GLL, but it's still an idea. I think it is about the same movecount.
 
porkynator said:
I did an OH EOLine + First 2x2x1 avg100, using a fixed orientation and solving always the BLD block. At first I was discouraged, because I was kind of slower, but then I managed to almost catch up with my times when I solved EOLine + first 2x2x1 without caring about orientation or which block. I did this because that will be what I will do for ZZ-d.
Click to expand...

I got a 6.59 avg12.

porkynator said:
On the topic "alternative ways to solve the cube when you are in <R, U>", has anybody thought of 2x2x1 + CLS + L5E? It's probably worse than F2L + 2GLL, but it's still an idea. I think it is about the same movecount.
Click to expand...

Or you could just 2gen WV the last slot for an EPLL.

Actually, if you could force the edges to be unphased after WV, this may be a viable method. That would only double the amount of WV cases, right? 54?

You would always get a U perm, but never a skip :(. Haha! Do you think it's worth it for OH?

Or do you think it's better to phase edges and deal with OH H and Z perms? Just for the skip chance? :P
 
mDiPalma said:
I got a 6.59 avg12.
Click to expand...
OH or 2H?
mDiPalma said:
Or you could just 2gen WV the last slot for an EPLL.

Actually, if you could force the edges to be unphased after WV, this may be a viable method. That would only double the amount of WV cases, right? 54?

You would always get a U perm, but never a skip :(. Haha! Do you think it's worth it for OH?

Or do you think it's better to phase edges and deal with OH H and Z perms? Just for the skip chance? :P
Click to expand...
I don't think it's worth to do WV after corners are permuted, even with the 100% U-perm or 25% skip chance. Probably F2L+2GLL is the best way to solve <R,U>.
 
mDiPalma said:
OH. I just a got 24.59 OH solve. I'm only ~5 seconds slower than 2H.
Click to expand...
Cool. I am ~5s slower with OH too, but I average 17 OH and 12 2H!
DO you plan full EOLine + 2x2 during inspection? I only plan EOLine and I force myself to track the 2x2 block pieces, but I think I will be able to plan full "zeoline" with some (maybe a lot of) practice. If so, what do you look for first? Blockbuilding or EO?
 
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