[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[ottozing]

Would an experienced ZZ solver be able to orient the edges and place all 4 E layer edges in the E layer for the first step of a solve? The E layer edges do not have to be permuted correctly.

If they wanted to, probably. That's a really bad idea though as far as speedsolving goes.

 

[BaMiao]

Would an experienced ZZ solver be able to orient the edges and place all 4 E layer edges in the E layer for the first step of a solve? The E layer edges do not have to be permuted correctly.

Let me guess: An orient first method?

 

[TheNextFeliks]

Let me guess: An orient first method?

Or belt lol.

 

[mDiPalma]

Let me guess: An orient first method?

Spoiler

here's my first go, but I'm pretty sure this approach is already out there:

eoline
place E slice edges in E slice on correct side (L or R) (can be 180 degrees off)
orient corners (ie OCLL the top, then L2 R2, then OCLL the bottom, sometimes weird cases)
<L2,U,R2> F2L
PLL

My first 25 solves: 43.46, 33.11, 37.32, 26.10, 29.23, 26.40, 30.62, 30.94, 30.64, 27.18, 29.89, 31.03, 31.13, 22.77, 30.66, 24.19, 24.57, (17.04), 24.71, (DNF), 25.66, 29.33, 21.26, 25.74, 21.93

best=17.04
best avg5=23.84
best avg12=25.08

the DNF was 12 bad edges

I think I have a better idea, but it's not quite Orient First. I'll give it a go.

 

[BaMiao]

here's my first go, but I'm pretty sure this approach is already out there:

eoline
place E slice edges in E slice on correct side (L or R) (can be 180 degrees off)
orient corners (ie OCLL the top, then L2 R2, then OCLL the bottom, sometimes weird cases)
<L2,U2,R2> F2L
PLL

Nice. I was imagining something similar, which was basically this method but with edge and corner orientation swapped.

 

[elrog]

Let me guess: An orient first method?

Well, Actually, I was thinking about a modified version of Lars Orient First method... He totally stole my idea block building F2L after orientation... I'm joking, I just found his method after I came up with the idea.

The first time I had the idea was after I had the idea of HTA and found it was already done... So many disappointments... My idea was to orient like you do in HTA and then do F2L and PLL.

I've now been thinking about solving the orientation of all 8 corners using 63 algorithms after edge orientation and placing the middle edges by using R2, L2, F2, B2, U, and D moves to simplify the top and bottom layer orientation cases to one of the 8 OCLL cases.

 

[ryn ball]

Hello experienced ZZ solvers after 2 1/2 months of studying ZZ and making it as main I managed to cut down my times from 35s ave to 19-20s ave using OCLL-PLL(18 PLLs w/o 2Nperms, E perm) as LL approach. Now should I study COLL? or 2GLL using ZZ-porky or blah's R U' R' insertion with CP? I have a thing in my mind kinda brute like studying 5 swaps in T,U,L and for the no swap some 2GLL in T,U,L with easy recognition and for hard recognition just COLL, 3 swaps in H case and for no swap 2GLL with easy recognition, normal OCLL for sune/antisune, for Pi case I think normal OCLL I'm confused in its recognition. What'ya think guys?
Thanks!

 

[Username]

D' F2 D2 F' R2 F' D2 F2 U2 R' F' L R' B U B L2 B R' D R' U' F' D' F'

U B' U' R F R L' D //EOL
U2 R2 L' U2 L' U2 L' //LSquare
R U2 R U L' U' L //LPair
U' R2 U' R2 U2 R2 U' R' //RSquare
U2 R' U' R U R' U' R //LPair
U' F r U R' U' f' F R //OLL
G-Perm


L D' R' D' L B2 L' F' R' F2 R2 D' R' F' B' R D2 L D2 R2 L' D2 U2 L B'

L F' R' U' B' D2 //EOL
U R U' R' L2 U' R U' L U2 L2 U' L2 U' L' //LB
U2 R' U R U' R' U2 R U R U' R U R' U R U' R' //RB
U R U' L' U R' U' L U' //COLL
M2 U M U2 M' U M2 //PLL

Critique? (I'm a CFOP solver and average 19 with zz)

 

[aznanimedude]

Hello experienced ZZ solvers after 2 1/2 months of studying ZZ and making it as main I managed to cut down my times from 35s ave to 19-20s ave using OCLL-PLL(18 PLLs w/o 2Nperms, E perm) as LL approach. Now should I study COLL? or 2GLL using ZZ-porky or blah's R U' R' insertion with CP? I have a thing in my mind kinda brute like studying 5 swaps in T,U,L and for the no swap some 2GLL in T,U,L with easy recognition and for hard recognition just COLL, 3 swaps in H case and for no swap 2GLL with easy recognition, normal OCLL for sune/antisune, for Pi case I think normal OCLL I'm confused in its recognition. What'ya think guys?
Thanks!

If you're doing 2gll you'll have to know coll anyway IMO. And uva has easily proven you can be fast with ocll/pll. I do COLL personally but doesn't mean you have to

 

[mDiPalma]

your F2L could be much more efficient

D' F2 D2 F' R2 F' D2 F2 U2 R' F' L R' B U B L2 B R' D R' U' F' D' F'

U B' U' R F R L' D //EOL

L2 U2 L' U2 R U R2 U R' (right block and accidental cp)
U L U' L U' L U' L' U2 L' (left block)

Edit: The difference between zz and cfop (for me at least) is that in zz, I look at all the F2L pieces and pick the best starting point. In cfop, I go with whichever pair I see first.

 

[uvafan]

If you're doing 2gll you'll have to know coll anyway IMO. And uva has easily proven you can be fast with ocll/pll. I do COLL personally but doesn't mean you have to

You say that a lot but my LL actually sucks because I my tps is terrible, it's the worst part of my solve. What really proves that OCLL/PLL is fast is people like Chris Olson sub-1ing all PLLs and all the OCLLs being really nice.

And I now know COLL except for sune and antisune, but I only use it for OH. I believe that OCLL/PLL is better for 2H, but you should definitely learn all COLL except sune and antisune if you like OH.

 

[mDiPalma]

Hey, for the past couple of weeks, I've used Porkynator's variation on ZZ-d quite a bit. I did a 15.90 avg5.

Spoiler

But I've noticed a few things:

-I get my fastest times when I build the left block first. This has more to do with the recognition than the regrip, though. With enough practice, someone should be able to be "side-neutral."
-You can recognize the relative corner permutation by applying your "understanding" of the corner cycles from standard COLL algorithms. By looking at groups of corners on the top layer that resemble COLL cases, you can identify the corner permutation with ease.
-Although it's obvious experienced solvers, L' U R U' L "swaps" the UBR and URF corners while L' U R2 U' L "swaps" the DFR and DRB corners. You use these 2 algorithms to solve or diagonally solve the corner permutation. This is the way I think during the cp phase.
-It does not seem that difficult to recognize the cp as long as any 2 corners are correctly permuted with respect to one another and placed at UL or at DR. For example, with UBR and UFR at the bottom right of the cube, it is easy to see what must happen to the other corners to solve or to diagonally solve the corners.
-Another thing that I noticed was that if you solve the DR corners and isolate the left block pieces first (as in ZZ-rainbow), then you can manipulate the way you solve the left block such that the cp will be solved afterwards. In other words, during the last slot of the left block, you can identify how the U layer corners must cycle in order to solve the U layer corners with respect to the D layer corners you already placed. There would be more cases than zz-porky, but it is not impossible.
-You also get fast times when you remember the 2GLL algorithm!

Please try ZZ-d (Porkynator's variation), and explain how you think it could be improved. I think it has a lot of potential!

 

[Nilsibert]

I started practising ZZ about 2 Weeks ago coming from CFOP, I averaged about 21-23s. Today I timed myself seriously for the first time using ZZ and my average was about 35-40s. Trying CFOP again I fell back to 28s avg.
Is that to be expected? I love ZZ, it's a lot of fun but besides sucking at EOline, I also have problems during F2l, especially at the start. It seems like I see nothing good, it's so many pieces and even if I build a block, finding the edge to build it on can take me some time. Is that just normal? Should I just continue to do casual slow solves until I get comfortable to get some base in the method?

 

[Hypocrism]

I've just returned from a LONG break from training speedcubing. The last thing I did before quitting was writing an essay comparing ZZ and CFOP, and I still want to learn ZZ. Right now I can get about 25s ZZ (I get about 20s CFOP) and I'm wondering if there are any sources for tips on looking ahead? I've found the ones on block building but after two days I haven't made any progress at all on my own to improve recognition (ie finding the three pieces to make a 2x2x1-I can normally find a solution quickly once I've found them) or look ahead.

 

[porkynator]

Happy almost-birthday to ZZ-porky!

 

[AHornbaker]

has anyone ever considered getting crazy good at inspection to utilize zz-d?

 

[BaMiao]

has anyone ever considered getting crazy good at inspection to utilize zz-d?

Wait, so you mean to plan during inspection- EOline, first block, and CP?

Don't think that'll happen anytime soon. Not in 15 seconds, unless you meant something else.

 

[TheNextFeliks]

Which variant of zz is best to learn?

 

[uvafan]

Which variant of zz is best to learn?

That's like asking which method is best. Be more specific. What are you looking for? Something that is good for OH? Something that has few algorithms but is still good? Something that is algorithm-heavy but has potential?

 

[TheNextFeliks]

That's like asking which method is best. Be more specific. What are you looking for? Something that is good for OH? Something that has few algorithms but is still good? Something that is algorithm-heavy but has potential?

I'm looking for fewer algorithms. No zbll or zzll.