[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[uvafan]

I average like 16 with zz and like 27 with cfop

 

[F perm]

ZZ users, what are your cfop times like in relation to your ZZ? I average 19 atm with ZZ and I was suprised to find I average 23 tonight with cfop (with no practice). I was much quicker than I expected, and I was pausing a lot too, I feel as though if I practiced cfop for a week or two, I would be around the same time I am at ZZ. :/

I average about 30 with CFOP now, but before I switched I was like 25 seconds.
With ZZ, ATM, I am about 23-24 seconds, after two weeks of practice, and still getting better at it as my CFOP times stay the same-ish.

 

[aznanimedude]

right now my averaage is probably down to like 22ish seconds ZZ, still getting too many sup-25 second solves for my taste though
if i did CFOP i'd imagine my times are probably around the 25-26ish second mark, and mostly because i'd have to 3LLL it

 

[mDiPalma]

i average like 14 with zzth, 23 with zzoh, 15-16 with cfop, and like 18 with petrus.

but i find petrus to be the most fun, so i've taken that as my default method as of recently.

 

[F perm]

Would you recommend learning 2GLL for ZZ, to raise 1LLL probabilities above 20% (when used with COLL) making it "non-lucky" to get?
How are the algs and the recog?

 

[aznanimedude]

never thought about it tbh, isn't it slightly more cases than ZZLL?
and wouldn't it require corner permutation before finishing F2L?
come to think of it i'm still being lazy about learning ZZLL LOL :3, gotta get on that soon before i forget again

 

[Pyjam]

Would you recommend learning 2GLL for ZZ, to raise 1LLL probabilities above 20% (when used with COLL) making it "non-lucky" to get?
How are the algs and the recog?

In the previous pages, I gave some examples for the cases where the edges are in phase. 3/4 of them are Sune/AntiSune combinations.

 

[F perm]

never thought about it tbh, isn't it slightly more cases than ZZLL?
and wouldn't it require corner permutation before finishing F2L?
come to think of it i'm still being lazy about learning ZZLL LOL :3, gotta get on that soon before i forget again

I'm saying for when the CP skips (1/6 times), and I think it would be better than ZZLL because it's 2-Gen.
Turns out it's less than (because I don't know how to account for symmetry in the double-Sune cases) 88 algs, I think:
12(number of EP cases per COLL case)x7(number of COLL cases)+4(EPLL)
Also not accounting for overlap with COLL.
I guess you could use standard ZBLL recognition, looking at FU and RU etc., after you saw it was a COLL case with CP solved.

@Pyjam
I will take a look at those pages.

 

[CubeRoots]

I keep thinking about giving ZZ-b ago, very unsure still though. Anyone who knows a bunch of the algs, could you tell me... are the algs generally quite good? Comparable with COLL?

Also, If i learned COLL which preserve edges, I could phase, do COLL and wind up with Zperm Hperm or skip (1/4 chance) to me that seems like an epic intermediate step. I could also see exactly what i'm gonna get as i'm doing the COLL alg. Has anyone tried this?

 

[mDiPalma]

i dont know anything about zz-b.

but i think coll-preserving-edge-permutation is just called L4C. The algs for that are long and unergonomic.

however, if you solved all edge permutation and solved the orientation and permutation of one corner while finishing f2l (like heise), you could solve the LL with just a commutator.

if you're curious about a variant like that, you should ask porkynator, wherever he is.

 

[Pyjam]

Also, If i learned COLL which preserve edges, I could phase, do COLL and wind up with Zperm Hperm or skip (1/4 chance) to me that seems like an epic intermediate step. I could also see exactly what i'm gonna get as i'm doing the COLL alg. Has anyone tried this?

Yes, that's what I do :
phasing + 2GLL
or phasing + COLL that preserve phasing + skip or PLL Z or H
or phasing + Sune/AS + PLL (too often for my taste, around 30% of time)
or phasing + other ZZLL sometime
or phasing + LL-skip (my favorite but rare)

I'm happy with that.

 

[aznanimedude]

the way i view it
learning COLL is like learning several different OLLs for the same case, that jsut happen to have different effects on the corners
learning ZZLLs is like learning several different COLLs for the same COLL case that just happen to have different effects on the edges.

so the algs for ZZLL are not that much different (if even at all different) from COLL algs, cuz in my mind, they're basically the same thing

 

[Pyjam]

Not really, because OLL are the fastest COLL, and COLL are the fastest ZBLL. Some ZZLL are awfull.

 

[Petro Leum]

I keep thinking about giving ZZ-b ago, very unsure still though. Anyone who knows a bunch of the algs, could you tell me... are the algs generally quite good? Comparable with COLL?

Also, If i learned COLL which preserve edges, I could phase, do COLL and wind up with Zperm Hperm or skip (1/4 chance) to me that seems like an epic intermediate step. I could also see exactly what i'm gonna get as i'm doing the COLL alg. Has anyone tried this?

yes, but i would never learn worse COLLs for a higher chance on Hs and Zs, because i hate them. i force Us whenever i can

 

[oll+phase+sync]

Also, If i learned COLL which preserve edges, I could phase, do COLL and wind up with Zperm Hperm or skip (1/4 chance) to me that seems like an epic intermediate step. I could also see exactly what i'm gonna get as i'm doing the COLL alg. Has anyone tried this?

I once had the idea to learn one edge-preserving COLL and one "phase-correcting" COLL (that's half of ZZ-b).
- This makes for 50% last step skip.
- Last step (if no skip) is always an H, wich is AUF free.
- Recognition is much simpler: you just need COLL recog because you will get to know the phasing state during the phasing phase almost for free.

But i was to lazy to learn all this algs, end just leard regular COLL

... or phasing + Sune/AS + PLL (too often for my taste, around 30% of time) ...

I never found a usefull rule whether sune or antisune will give me to better PLL case.

(For the 2GLL cases it's alway a U-Perm, so I at least know: I don't have to care about)

For an unphased last Layer, I swich between Sune and Antisune to transform
H,Z -> U
N,E -> V,Y
G,R,J -> A, F, T

this is not really perfect for me, because I like J, E, H Perms, but my recognition is not advanced enough.

 

[ThomasJE]

I just did 50 ZZ solves; here they are:

35.76, 29.23, 29.44, 40.97[Messed up EO], 23.48, 29.25, 28.17, 28.43[Messed up EO], 29.32+, 31.53, 28.00, 28.17, 22.67, 21.23, 21.13, 28.52, 33.63, 27.98, 36.82+, 39.18, 33.55, 22.42, 31.93, 23.66, 26.36, 30.41, 21.15, 24.08, 20.97, 21.39, 25.72, 21.48+, 26.26+, 25.41, 23.59, 25.85, 27.45, 27.27, 25.88, 30.83, 24.91, 21.31, 37.81, 30.84, 24.62, 30.80, 23.41, 31.07, 25.77, 24.86

number of times: 50/50
best time: 20.97
worst time: 40.97

current avg5: 27.14 (σ = 2.61)
best avg5: 22.21 (σ = 1.33)

current avg12: 27.30 (σ = 3.00)
best avg12: 23.91 (σ = 1.93)

session avg: 27.54 (σ = 4.51)
session mean: 27.68

Is this good for me; bearing in mind that I've only been doing ZZ for less than 2 months?

 

[MarcelP]

Nice Thomas! Soon and you will be faster with ZZ than CFOP..

 

[ThomasJE]

Nice Thomas! Soon and you will be faster with ZZ than CFOP..

Yeah... I aim to keep a good speed with CFOP though, so I can use it on big cubes as CFOP isn't as inspection heavy as ZZ. It would be nice if I could keep the same speed with both.

 

[aznanimedude]

Re: ZZ/ZB Home Thread

Another person about to pass me in zz too lol. I need to practice more lolol

 

[uvafan]

I just did 50 ZZ solves; here they are:

Is this good for me; bearing in mind that I've only been doing ZZ for less than 2 months?

Depends on the amount you practice and lots of other factors. I moved very quickly, I've been using ZZ for one day under six months and I'm pretty much sub15, but, as I said, I'm on the fast end of progression.