The Future of Competitive Speedsolving (a discussion)

[David Zemdegs]

the various whispers about WRs and Feliks actually turning into outright hostility

Can someone tell me what he has done wrong? And if one hears those whispers do you think you should perpetuate them or condemn them?

 

[Tim Major]

About fans getting less interested, I agree. I remember at MSO2010 when Faz got his first world records, the thread didn't die for over a week, and when it was first posted, even though many in the US would've been sleeping, there were a few pages in under an hour. At Nationals over the past weekend when I wanted live results, I'd try to find the thread, and find it wasn't on the homepage. I think back in 2010 there were 7000 competitors tops? (my mind is saying way less, but that seems unbelievable). Last I checked my Dad was ranked at around 12, 000. So whilst interest in Faz's times may be falling, cubing is definitely getting more popular.

Edit: David, when you go to the footy, some people get pretty hostile to the other team. I think this is what he's saying, not that he's done anything wrong.

 

[ARyder]

...
While not to take away from the achievements of Feliks Zemdegs (who could very well be reading this), this has many parallels to other competitive endeavors, such as the world of professional sports. Take a consistently winning sports team such as the Wayne Gretzky era Edmonton Oilers or the Michael Jordan era Chicago Bulls. When standings are consistently dominated by one team, interest starts to wane and it's no longer such a big deal when the top ranked team continues to win, and towards the end of the team's reign, fans start cheering for the underdog.
...

An interesting read but I respectfully disagree about waning interest

I only ever watched NBL when Michael Jordan was playing - far from waning interest it generated interest in me and I dare say a host of others like me.

In Australia we have a super race horse - Black Cavier, probably the fastest horse on the planet - expected to win win win but far from waning interest - people who would never go to the races are packing in to see this horse run.

The same applies to football (erh, soccer), Manchester United, Barcelona, etc are winning winning winning but that draws more people in not less. Losing and poor performances is what makes interest wane.

Lance Armstrong won 7 Tour De France races, again far from waning interest myriads of people were inspired to "get into it" because of him.

It seems to me people like to see extraordinary performances.

I'm not familiar with your Gretzky and Edmonton cases but I see truck loads of counter examples.

In the case of cubing, I'm no speedstar but I'm getting back into it because of none other than Mr F. Zemdegs.

Granted the opposition might be demoralised in all of the above examples and they might feel their own interest waning but I seriously doubt the paying public's interest is waning.

YMMV

 

[stoic]

The sporting analogies only go so far surely...most sports fans aren't competing? They're sitting at home watching. Cubers on the other hand are at least sitting at home cubing if not actively competing. It's the cube we love, not the top cubers.

 

[Phlippieskezer]

The sporting analogies only go so far surely...most sports fans aren't competing? They're sitting at home watching. Cubers on the other hand are at least sitting at home cubing if not actively competing. It's the cube we love, not the top cubers.

This is a good point.
Personally, I'm (somewhat) losing interest in the 'big names' and watching top solves, though I don't really think this is entirely because of single-man domination (though it would definitely catch my interest if some 'no-namer' comes up and beats Faz).
I think interest in the top solves are waning, as the world record for whatever event(s) (Faz's 3x3 is the easiest example) being beaten repetitively by the same person just loses some of the excitement. However, this doesn't mean interest in cubing as a whole is waning. I find more people are interested in breaking 'that time barrier' or getting new personal bests more than they are interested in watching/find out about top solves. I, for one, was jumping up and down in joy when I got my sub-8, but not even nearly the same effect got me when I saw Faz's sub-6 (though, holy cow, that's good).

P.S. My sincerest apologies if my words are incoherent. I really shouldn't be up right now (it's 02:00).

 

[stoic]

Is there also another reason why interest in WRs may have declined...the YouTube effect? I mean, one has to say Faz's achievements in 3x3 are simply staggering (easiest example, as above) but when he got his 5.66 I wasn't all that surprised - I'd already seen him go that fast on in practice on YouTube.

Conversely, if you're interested in the progression of WRs I think this is a really fertile time as numbers seem to be dropping fast and often (will we look back on this as a golden era?) but I personally cube for my own enjoyment, and as Phlippieskezer says, breaking personal bests.

 

[irontwig]

Actually, I have to disagree with that. His official solves are generally pretty normal (although there is the occasional ZBLL and xcross), and sometimes he messes up and does an incredibly bad pair. Maybe the ones that have those tricks are the ones that have good times and end up being put on youtube?

Yeah, that's what I find quite fascinating about Feliks; the fact that he does very little different from (say) a sub-15 cuber but he's still far ahead in times.

 

[Enter]

Cubing needs more VS battles cuber vs cuber to make things more interesting! Not only persuiting of world records. Cubing is much more it is the a way of life for many people including me!
ps the sub 10 cubers are not better cubers they are just faster!

 

[Cubenovice]

Yeah, that's what I find quite fascinating about Feliks; the fact that he does very little different from (say) a sub-15 cuber but he's still far ahead in times.

Could this be some sort of proof that knowing the advanced stuff makes the normal stuff so much easier that it improves your times?
Even in solves where you do not even use the advanced stuff?

 

[Kirjava]

TPS ~= APM

 

[Escher]

If by 'competitive speedcubing' you mean 3x3, then yeah, I guess we'll see the top cubers tending towards 7.5ish averages being the best they can perform, with the outliers getting sub 7 regularly. There are various avenues that have yet to be explored in just 'CFOP', let alone other methods.

In the future I hope that our current idea of CFOP will be almost un-recognisable and need to be renamed

In regards to many other puzzles, I think we have an extremely long way to go. While speedcubing might seem limited in our current meta, I'd hazard a guess that in as little as 3 years time we will see some seriously incredible barriers being broken, in terms of efficiency, not just raw time.

Also lol ya TPS/APM comparison.

 

[Godmil]

Cubing still has soooo far to go. This is still a very exciting time. There is still so much variety at the moment, people use different methods, in those methods people use different algs, use different finger tricks etc. Later down the line (after a lot more experimentation) these things will be ironed out, there will be a set way to hold and turn the cube, specific algs for every part of the solve that everyone will learn, then things will boil down to just flat out how quickly can you do it. But that is a long way off. Also currently people are breaking world records left right and center, and I really can't see that slowing down. As long as people are posting scary fast times on youTube, there is still a lot of potential to reach in comps.

 

[stoic]

Later down the line (after a lot more experimentation) these things will be ironed out, there will be a set way to hold and turn the cube, specific algs for every part of the solve that everyone will learn, then things will boil down to just flat out how quickly can you do it.

Do you really think so? That's quite a depressing thought in a way. Wouldn't it be amazing if someone came along right now and blew the doors off CFOP with a sub-6 Petrus solve (or whatever)? I'd rather see cubing as analogous to a sport like say motor racing where you can have different driver/chassis/engine/driving style combinations racing within fractions of a second of each other. There are plenty of drivers with historically unorthodox styles who have been fast.

 

[riffz]

Actually, I have to disagree with that. His official solves are generally pretty normal (although there is the occasional ZBLL and xcross), and sometimes he messes up and does an incredibly bad pair. Maybe the ones that have those tricks are the ones that have good times and end up being put on youtube?

Yea, I get that feeling more and more. He does all sorts of interesting stuff in walkthrough solves, but after going through all of the reconstructions, most of his competition solves seem pretty normal. However, I think one thing that's not always obvious in reconstructions is how far he looks ahead during inspection.

That said, it's pretty much just a lethal combination of lightning recognition and lookahead, combined with crazy TPS.

 

[Toquinha1977]

This discussion has pretty much outpaced my original expectations (refer to first sentence and message to moderators), especially given my limited exposure to the competitive scene (only one competition outside my local area, zero competitions outside my country), so thanks for the great comments from everyone.

I would like to apologize for my somewhat alarmist tone in the OP, as doomsayers do tend to be a drag to be around (ClimateChangePeakOilFinancialMarketCrash!). And of course, Feliks has done nothing "wrong" to necessarily warrant an apparent backlash...it's like everything that becomes popular after a long time. It happened to The Beatles, it happened to James Cameron's Titanic, and it happens to most of our politicians (although that's likely for different reasons entirely).

I'll admit that a lack of a sub20 avg doesn't lend myself to a ton of credibility in speedsolving circles, so thanks for actually taking this seriously.

 

[TMOY]

Do you really think so? That's quite a depressing thought in a way. Wouldn't it be amazing if someone came along right now and blew the doors off CFOP with a sub-6 Petrus solve (or whatever)? I'd rather see cubing as analogous to a sport like say motor racing where you can have different driver/chassis/engine/driving style combinations racing within fractions of a second of each other. There are plenty of drivers with historically unorthodox styles who have been fast.

I definitely agree that the diversity of methods makes the speedcubing world much more interesting than everybody oing the same thong. The problem is that it is very hard if not impossible to explain it to the aforementioned 13 year olds; when you try to tell them that there is more than just CFOP; they generally only answer "hey I want to be fast you know", not realizing that these two statements are not contradicting each other at all.

 

[qqwref]

I learned a long time ago that if you compete outwardly, that this is a very unhealthy way to be competitive. If you compete inwardly, that this is a much healthier way to be competitive.

I agre, but on the other hand it's also sad that the people who aren't super fast at 3x3 get almost no recognition or respect. I think a lot of more experienced cubers get the feeling that they've spent all this time, done all this stuff, and yet nobody really cares or is impressed. So then you feel like you need to get faster at 3x3 but you can't, and so on. And I don't really know if there's a fix to this.

 

[Stefan]

sad that the people who aren't super fast at 3x3 get almost no recognition or respect

Don't know about respect, but recognition is very easy to get. Take Jorghi for example.

 

[StachuK1992]

While these stabs are justified, they're getting off topic.
Non-speed and non-SpeedSolving.com acts can also get you recognized.

Case: Will Smith.

 

[cmhardw]

No offense taken.

Sour grapes? I would hope those that know me don't see me that way. As it is, I do agree with the sentiment that outward competition isn't particularly healthy (perhaps I should've used the words "self-improvement" rather than "self-gratification"), and have accepted that becoming the best at something comes with equal portions of effort, natural talent, and skill/knowledge, and if it starts taking over my life and making me depressed, I should probably try something else or adjust my attitude (or switch to single-player video games). I mean, I some pretty weak showings at my last two comps, only showing marginal improvements in 3x3x3, although I've shown some significant jumps in other areas, which has largely renewed my drive to do better (although my intent is to put more focus into OH, just to shake things up a bit, especially since I'm pretty sure that I peaked in 3x3x3)

I wasn't necessarily referring specifically to you with that sour grapes comment, it's more that I can see that as a counterpoint to my argument. And yes, as you said sometimes in competition you only make marginal improvements. I think you should still be excited about these as well, and it would seem that you agree.

I agre, but on the other hand it's also sad that the people who aren't super fast at 3x3 get almost no recognition or respect. I think a lot of more experienced cubers get the feeling that they've spent all this time, done all this stuff, and yet nobody really cares or is impressed. So then you feel like you need to get faster at 3x3 but you can't, and so on. And I don't really know if there's a fix to this.

Yes I can see what you mean. I often feel that way looking at the semi-final results of a large competition. All the people who just barely do not qualify for the final tend to have very impressive times. Perhaps they got nervous on a solve (making a "slow" solve one of their counting solves) or something similar. I guess people will just have to learn to either move on to a new category, or to feel pride in their performances even if they perceive that others don't give them recognition (or only their close, core group of friends give them recognition). I definitely took the former approach. I used to be somewhat competitive in 3x3x3 speedsolving (circa 2005), but I since was eclipsed so much so that I just moved onto other categories (BLD cubing). This was probably because, at the time, I was competing outwardly and not inwardly. I'm not saying that it was a decision made for good reasons, but I am glad that I did make the decision, because now I enjoy BLD cubing very much (and I compete inwardly now, which I feel is healthier for me).