[Help Thread] FMC Discussion

[Cubenovice]

Belgian Open 2011:

NR: Ron van Bruchem in FMC: 25 HTM

Would like to see the full solution, Ron mentioned it was 19 move F2L with 6 move LL

Scramble:
B2 F2 L' U2 R F2 R2 B L2 R2 U L' R2 D2 U F' D2 L2 B'

Cubenovice: DNF after fainling to find a good ending for:
premoves U2 F
B2 R D L F' D2 F2 D' makes X-Cross
F2 R F U F2 pseudo 2x2x3 (origin of premove F)
F' U F pseudo F2L-slot) (origin of premove U2)
competition nerves getting to me again...
couldn't find a decent ending and I refuse to write a 40+ solution.
- R' F R F' makes F2L with 2 EO
I really should learn full OLL some time

 

[guusrs]

Belgian Open 2011:

NR: Ron van Bruchem in FMC: 25 HTM

Would like to see the full solution, Ron mentioned it was 19 move F2L with 6 move LL

Scramble:
B2 F2 L' U2 R F2 R2 B L2 R2 U L' R2 D2 U F' D2 L2 B'

Cubenovice: DNF after fainling to find a good ending for:
premoves U2 F
B2 R D L F' D2 F2 D' makes X-Cross
F2 R F U F2 pseudo 2x2x3 (origin of premove F)
F' U F pseudo F2L-slot) (origin of premove U2)
competition nerves getting to me again...
couldn't find a decent ending and I refuse to write a 40+ solution.
- R' F R F' makes F2L with 2 EO
I really should learn full OLL some time

woooooooow, congratz Ron!
It will be harder for me now te got the NR back!

Gus

 

[y235]

So in the Israelian Forum we opened a FMC Thread and there was this scramble: D F' L2 D' B' R' B2 L' D2 U' L2 B2 D R' U' F' R U B2 U2 F' L' D' L' F
And someone found this start:
2X2X2: F D2 B R'
2X2X3: L' B2 D' B
And he couldn't fing good ending so after some tries i was able to find this:
EO: B D2 B'
F2L: L D2 L D2 L' D2 L2 D2 L2 D' L2 D2 L D2 L' D' L
OLL: B' D' B D' B' D2 B
PLL: D2
It is 33 moves.

 

[okayama]

Today is a memorial day on which I registered for this forum (just a year ago).
I'm not sure whether I have developed my skill, but sure I have enjoyed this thread.
Solutions, discussions, tips, whatever. Sometimes quite informative and impressive.
Big thanks to Guus for inviting me, and also to all the people in this thread.
I'm planning to go to World Champs, and looking forward to meeting you all.

This thread started on 07-13-2009, and went to 24 pages by the time I registered.
From that day to today, it has grown up to 77 pages, at double the speed!
This shows FMC lovers and interested people have increased considerably for the past year.
It's a great news. I hope it also occurs in Japan, and more FMC events are held in Japan.

 

[Ron]

For the record my solution for Belgian Open 2011:

Scramble: B2 F2 L' U2 R F2 R2 B L2 R2 U L' R2 D2 U F' D2 L2 B'
Solution:
U R' U' L2 R D2
L2 F2 L U2
F L' F' L F2
L U L2 U'
D L F L' F' D'
(25 moves)

I am happy that after so many competitions I finally found a nice solution.
Found it within 10 minutes, then checked it at least 25 times. ;-)
I know it is not a great solution with lots of FMC strategies. My normal strategy is to solve F2L-1 in few moves and then try several endings with last F2L pair. This one worked out very nicely.

 

[Cubenovice]

THX for sharing!

I had actually hoped for a magic ZB LL algorithm ;-)

 

[Attila]

@irontwig:
Continue here the discussion about short corner solution finding.
You’re right, it would be useful to know me the 3cycle algs, but i was too lazy to learn this.
I use another trick, for the few moves solve the corners, i write an example solve below:
Scramble: B U' R' B D B' L U R' B L2 B' L2 R2 U2 B2 R' U' weekly comp. 2011-16
First time i found a 10 moves solution for corners:
DF2DF2D’L’F2L’U’R.
Now looking for a 3-moves part, that meets the following conditions: the first and third move should be same or opposite letter, and the second move is double turn. The 6.-7.-8. moves (L’F2L’) just be good. Then i cut for 3 parts the 10 moves solutiion:
DF2DF2D'
L’F2L’
U’R.
Then i swap the order of parts:
The third part (U’R) will the premove, then i solve the first part (DF2DF2D'), and the second part i leave it. The result: all corners -2moves (L’F2), but from this position it can proceed.
This scramble possible do the same for inverse scramble:
R’ULF2LDF2D’F2D’.
Cut for 3 parts:
R’ULF2L
DF2D’
F2D’.
Premoves: F2D’, solve R’ULF2L , leave DF2D’.

 

[guusrs]

For the record my solution for Belgian Open 2011:

Scramble: B2 F2 L' U2 R F2 R2 B L2 R2 U L' R2 D2 U F' D2 L2 B'
Solution:
U R' U' L2 R D2
L2 F2 L U2
F L' F' L F2
L U L2 U'
D L F L' F' D'
(25 moves)

I am happy that after so many competitions I finally found a nice solution.
Found it within 10 minutes, then checked it at least 25 times. ;-)
I know it is not a great solution with lots of FMC strategies. My normal strategy is to solve F2L-1 in few moves and then try several endings with last F2L pair. This one worked out very nicely.

Well done Ron,
I couldn't do better on this scramble
Gus

 

[guusrs]

@irontwig:
Continue here the discussion about short corner solution finding.
You’re right, it would be useful to know me the 3cycle algs, but i was too lazy to learn this.
I use another trick, for the few moves solve the corners, i write an example solve below:
Scramble: B U' R' B D B' L U R' B L2 B' L2 R2 U2 B2 R' U' weekly comp. 2011-16
First time i found a 10 moves solution for corners:
DF2DF2D’L’F2L’U’R.
Now looking for a 3-moves part, that meets the following conditions: the first and third move should be same or opposite letter, and the second move is double turn. The 6.-7.-8. moves (L’F2L’) just be good. Then i cut for 3 parts the 10 moves solutiion:
DF2DF2D
L’F2L’
U’R.
Then i swap the order of parts:
The third part (U’R) will the premove, then i solve the first part (DF2DF2D), and the second part i leave it. The result: all corners -2moves (L’F2), but from this position it can proceed.
This scramble possible do the same for inverse scramble:
R’ULF2LDF2D’F2D’.
Cut for 3 parts:
R’ULF2L
DF2D’
F2D’.
Premoves: F2D’, solve R’ULF2L , leave DF2D’.

hmmm, nice.
and very nissy!

 

[Attila]

hmmm, nice.
and very nissy!

What it means "nissy"?
I cannot translate, sorry

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

What it means "nissy"?
I cannot translate, sorry

He is referencing the NISS method for FMC. its a made up word, so don't worry about it.

 

[Attila]

He is referencing the NISS method for FMC. its a made up word, so don't worry about it.

Thanks I guessed, but I was not sure.

 

[Cubenovice]

In this weeks comp I lost 30 minutes on a messed up inverse scramble.
Worked a little with this miss-scramble before realising I made a mistake.
But as it was not just a random miss-scramble I spend some time seeing if I could still use the moves I found.
Unfortunately I could not relate the moves to the actual scramble so I had to start all over again with a mediocre 36 HTM as a result.

What did I do?
NOTE: This is a made up example as I do not want to compromise the running weekly scramble.
You may recognize some weekly 20 in this ;-)

Scramble: U’ R L F L’ F2 R2 U R’ L’ D’ L F’ U’ L D L2
Checking the inverse for a nice start.
But instead of:
Inverse: L2 D’ L’ U F L’ D L R U’ R2 F2 L F’ L’ R’ U
I did something like this (I must have had a serious brainfart...)
Whatever-verse: U R' L' F' L F2 R2 U' R L D L' F U L' D' L2
Oops, forgot to work backwards, I just inverted every single move starting from the front.

On this whatever-verse we have a nice 2x2x3: F2 R2 U D B' F' L' U L2

Now the big question is: can these moves be used in one way or another to help solve the original scramble?

What I tried during the weekly comp:
Applied the moves to both the normal and inverse scramble
Applied the moves (but wrongly inversed) to both the normal and inverse scramble
Use the moves as premoves for both the normal and inverse scramble
Use the moves (but wrongly inversed) as premoves for both the normal and inverse scramble
But nothing usefull came out of it, so I had to start all over a again...

After the comp I checked in cube explorer if this kind of conversion creates an isomorphic pattern: NO
BUT: a regular inversed scramble also does NOT create an isomorphic pattern (according to CE).
So it seems scramble conversions do not have to result in isomorphic patterns to be usefull.

I want to believe that this kind of scramble conversion could be usefull but I just don’t see it.

When comparing inversing a scramble vs whatever-versing you see that the inverse scramble is closely related to the original scramble and the whatever-verse gives a completely different pattern.

This means that if a useful relation can be found we now have extra, all new, scramble to explore.

Looking back into this typed out example I see: my whatever-verse is actually just a reverse notation of the inverse scramble.

So the new (simpler) question: can a reversal of a scramble be used to generate usefull moves for the normal scramble?
A quick check in alg garron seems to dismiss this idea too…

Test scramble weekly 20
L2 D L U' F' L D' L' R' U R2 F2 L' F L R U'
Solution (irontwig)
F2 U2 B U L B U2 R' D B' D' F D B R2 D R2 D' R D2 R' D F2 = OK

Test scramble reversed:
U' R L F L' F2 R2 U R' L' D' L F' U' L D L2
Solution (irontwig) reversed
F2 D R' D2 R D' R2 D R2 B D F D' B' D R' U2 B L U B U2 F2 = NOK

Oh well... I guess this highlights the beauty of the original NISS method.

Apart from using the inverse scramble, could there be any other usefull conversions?
Some not so usefull things that come to mind:
- some random premoves: gets you a "new" scramble but will cost you some moves
- mirrored scrambles (choose your axis): isomorphic pattern but perhaps different recognition


Mirror example:
normal
U R' L' F' L F2 R2 U' R L D L' F U L' D' L2
3x3x3


L/R mirror
U' L R F R' F2 L2 U L' R' D' R F' U' R D R2
3x3x3

 

[irontwig]

Not "new scramble" trick, but something to do with pre-moves.

Example: a b c.x y z [Leaves a few pieces]
At the dot all unsolved pieces appear on a single layer, then when we can use pre-moves x y z, scramble and then a b c to get a complete F2L.

 

[kinch2002]

Here's some L4C practice if you want
Weekly Comp 21 (current one)
Scramble: B' F' U' L' R2 B' R D2 R D2 B R F' L U F U2 F'
2x2x3: U R F U2 L B2 R B' (8)
EO and F2L leaving 4 corners (one twisted): F' U2 F R' U' B U2 B' R2 U R (19)
Anyone want to try and find a good double insertion?
Btw, I used an alternative solution, so you won't be giving me my solution here!

Also, I have a question. Anyone got ideas for what to do with 3-edge insertions? Or 2C2E left?
With 3 edges, it's usually difficult to find a place where you can do M U2 M' U2 so it results in >8 moves if you try to setup to that sort of thing.

 

[irontwig]

2C2E inserts can be done with short LL algs. Sometimes doing inserts with 10f/8s comms will cancel more moves and result in a shorter solution than inserting 6-8 movers. But yeah most of the times edge insertions are inferior to corner insertions. If you also have both corners and three edges left then you can try do insert sexy move or sledge hammer to solve the edges and leave three corners.

 

[kinch2002]

2C2E inserts can be done with short LL algs. Sometimes doing inserts with 10f/8s comms will cancel more moves and result in a shorter solution than inserting 6-8 movers. But yeah most of the times edge insertions are inferior to corner insertions. If you also have both corners and three edges left then you can try do insert sexy move or sledge hammer to solve the edges and leave three corners.

Thanks I don't get what you mean about inserting sexy move - R U R' U' could solve 3 edges, but will also move 4 corners...do you mean that you have try to make them the right corners that you move around too, so that you still only have 3 corners left, but different ones? That sounds difficult if that is the case

 

[irontwig]

You could always just apply the four moves and see if you leave three corners in the end; trial and error is your friend.

 

[guusrs]

With 3 edges, it's usually difficult to find a place where you can do M U2 M' U2 so it
results in >8 moves if you try to setup to that sort of thing.

Edge insertion can also be done with
- U2 L2 F L2 U2 R2 B R2
- B' R B' M B' R' B' M'
- B' R B' M2 B' R' B M2
- B2 R B2 M B2 R' B2 M'
- B2 R B2 M2 B2 R' B2 M'
(or start with any move in the middel and rollover the alg)

The first one is my favorite: the first 2 moves do not affect the 3 edges involved
Because of so many possibilties and all those slices there's a big chance of cancelling 2 or more moves.

You can practice with this scramble:
2008-44: F R2 B' L2 D2 L2 B2 F' L2 D F' D2 L F D R' F' D' U B F
all but 3 edges: L2 F D R' B2 D2 R B F U' R2 U R' U F' U' (16)

solution:

Spoiler

after the 10th move insert: L2 D B' D' R2 L2 U F U' R2, 4 moves cancel

Gus

 

[guusrs]

In this weeks comp I lost 30 minutes on a messed up inverse scramble.
Worked a little with this miss-scramble before realising I made a mistake.
But as it was not just a random miss-scramble I spend some time seeing if I could still use the moves I found.
Unfortunately I could not relate the moves to the actual scramble so I had to start all over again with a mediocre 36 HTM as a result.

What did I do?
NOTE: This is a made up example as I do not want to compromise the running weekly scramble.
You may recognize some weekly 20 in this ;-)

Scramble: U’ R L F L’ F2 R2 U R’ L’ D’ L F’ U’ L D L2
Checking the inverse for a nice start.
But instead of:
Inverse: L2 D’ L’ U F L’ D L R U’ R2 F2 L F’ L’ R’ U
I did something like this (I must have had a serious brainfart...)
Whatever-verse: U R' L' F' L F2 R2 U' R L D L' F U L' D' L2
Oops, forgot to work backwards, I just inverted every single move starting from the front.

On this whatever-verse we have a nice 2x2x3: F2 R2 U D B' F' L' U L2

Now the big question is: can these moves be used in one way or another to help solve the original scramble?

What I tried during the weekly comp:
Applied the moves to both the normal and inverse scramble
Applied the moves (but wrongly inversed) to both the normal and inverse scramble
Use the moves as premoves for both the normal and inverse scramble
Use the moves (but wrongly inversed) as premoves for both the normal and inverse scramble
But nothing usefull came out of it, so I had to start all over a again...

After the comp I checked in cube explorer if this kind of conversion creates an isomorphic pattern: NO
BUT: a regular inversed scramble also does NOT create an isomorphic pattern (according to CE).
So it seems scramble conversions do not have to result in isomorphic patterns to be usefull.

I want to believe that this kind of scramble conversion could be usefull but I just don’t see it.

When comparing inversing a scramble vs whatever-versing you see that the inverse scramble is closely related to the original scramble and the whatever-verse gives a completely different pattern.

This means that if a useful relation can be found we now have extra, all new, scramble to explore.

Looking back into this typed out example I see: my whatever-verse is actually just a reverse notation of the inverse scramble.

So the new (simpler) question: can a reversal of a scramble be used to generate usefull moves for the normal scramble?
A quick check in alg garron seems to dismiss this idea too…

Test scramble weekly 20
L2 D L U' F' L D' L' R' U R2 F2 L' F L R U'
Solution (irontwig)
F2 U2 B U L B U2 R' D B' D' F D B R2 D R2 D' R D2 R' D F2 = OK

Test scramble reversed:
U' R L F L' F2 R2 U R' L' D' L F' U' L D L2
Solution (irontwig) reversed
F2 D R' D2 R D' R2 D R2 B D F D' B' D R' U2 B L U B U2 F2 = NOK

Oh well... I guess this highlights the beauty of the original NISS method.

Apart from using the inverse scramble, could there be any other usefull conversions?
Some not so usefull things that come to mind:
- some random premoves: gets you a "new" scramble but will cost you some moves
- mirrored scrambles (choose your axis): isomorphic pattern but perhaps different recognition

I can not see why this would give any advantage more than starting your solve with random moves, which also helps sometime, eg to unlock mismatched pairs.
Gus