Faz
Former Clock NR Holder
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- Apr 24, 2008
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Yeah, I understand insertions, but can you show me the situation here where I would use one?
[Help Thread] FMC Discussion
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Yes We Can!
Veteran
My solve at European Championship 2010:
Scramble: L D2 B' D2 B R' B' U B L B L2 B2 U2 F2 U R2 D' B2 D' B2
Solve: z2 x U2 R U L R U' L2
x R F' R2 U F R2
U y' L U L' U' F' U F
R U2 R' U R U' R' U' R' F R
F U' L R' F2 L' R U' F2
Click to view solution
That's 41 moves in total. Good for me
I want sub-40 :/
Scramble: L D2 B' D2 B R' B' U B L B L2 B2 U2 F2 U R2 D' B2 D' B2
Solve: z2 x U2 R U L R U' L2
x R F' R2 U F R2
U y' L U L' U' F' U F
R U2 R' U R U' R' U' R' F R
F U' L R' F2 L' R U' F2
Click to view solution
That's 41 moves in total. Good for me
I want sub-40 :/
irontwig
Veteran
There's a 27 move solution without insertions hidden in Faz's.
Hint:
Another hint:
Hint:
Continue differently after the third pair
Triple x-cross or pseudo-2x2x3+2x2x1?
Last edited:
PalashD
Regular
Insertions: (This might be the most advanced technique. It helps if you know something about solving a cube blindfolded.)
Sometimes it is better to do a 3-cycle of edges or corners in the middle of the solve than at the end. A 3-cycle of edges takes 9 moves when they are in the same layer (PLL) and even more when they are not. But if they are on the same slice it can often be done in 6 moves
Insertions example:
Scramble: L' B' L2 F B U R' B D' L2 B U' B2 U L U2 D2 L
Cross (9): R2 U' R' B' L U L' D' U2
First 2 Pairs (3): B2 L B2
3rd Pair (4): D F D F'
Last 5 corners (7): D2 L' D L D2 L' D'
As you can see, all corners are done and there are 5 edges that need to be cycled. Put numbered stickers on the first color of the following pieces
1 = yellow-red
2 = yellow-blue
3 = yellow-green
4 = yellow-orange
5 = green-orange
This list is the order of the cycle. Piece 1 goes to the location of piece 2, 2->3, 3-> 4, 4-> 5 and 5-> 1.
After that, do the scramble on a solved cube that has the stickers on it. Perform your solve and look for a point where 3 continuously numbered stickers are on the same slice or on the same face (permutation) and all stickers are on the same or opposite faces (orientation). If you find such a moment you can perform an algorithm that cycles these pieces (hopefully you even get cancellations at the beginning or end).
If you look carefully you can see that after the first six moves (R2 U' R' B' L U) pieces 1, 2 and 3 are in the S-slice with the correct orientation. They can be cycled in 6 moves (D2 F B' L2 F' B) so now the solution becomes
Cross Part 1 (6): R2 U' R' B' L U
Edge-Cycle insertion 1 (6): D2 F B' L2 F' B
Cross Part 2 (3): L' D' U2
First 2 Pairs (3): B2 L B2
3rd Pair (4): D F D F'
Last 5 corners (7): D2 L' D L D2 L' D'
Now only pieces 3, 4 and 5 are wrong.
A good moment to insert a cycle that solves pieces 3, 4 and 5 is just before the "Last 5 corners" because at that moment pieces 3, 4 and 5 are all on D-face with the correct orientation. They can be cycled in 9 moves (B2 D' L R' B2 R L' D' B2) so the final solution becomes
Cross Part 1 (6): R2 U' R' B' L U
Edge-Cycle insertion 1 (6): D2 F B' L2 F' B
Cross Part 2 (3): L' D' U2
First 2 Pairs (3): B2 L B2
3rd Pair (4): D F D F'
Edge-Cycle inserstion 2 (9): B2 D' L R' B2 R L' D' B2
Last 5 corners (7): D2 L' D L D2 L' D'
from this http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?1566-Fewest-Moves-Tips-and-Techniques thread.
guusrs
Veteran
Uhm, sorry, I was wrong, I thought you said PLL instead of OLL and that should mean you ended up with a corner- or edge 3-cycle.
But to illustrate: you could replace your last 3 moves F2L with F2 U L' U' L F2 remaining a corner-3-cycle. Did you try that? It could give some cancellations, 1 till 5 moves or even more and end up with probably less than 32 moves.
I tried this and got:
only 1 move cancellation this time, so ended up in 33 moves ;-(
Gus
Weston
Premium Member
Second serious FMC ever. FMC is pretty fun 
Scramble B2 U' L2 D' F2 B' R' F' L2 F R U2 F2 U2 F' U' L F L' D' F2 R2 F L' F'
2x2: U' D' F' U'
2 more slots : B2 L' D2 L' D2 B L *U B2 U'
LS + EP : B D B D' B D B D'
Insert L'BLF2L'B'LF2 at *
Stuff cancels and I got
U' D' F' U' B2 L' D2 L' D2 B2 L F2 L'B' L F2 U B2 U' B D B D' B D B D' (27)
Scramble B2 U' L2 D' F2 B' R' F' L2 F R U2 F2 U2 F' U' L F L' D' F2 R2 F L' F'
2x2: U' D' F' U'
2 more slots : B2 L' D2 L' D2 B L *U B2 U'
LS + EP : B D B D' B D B D'
Insert L'BLF2L'B'LF2 at *
Stuff cancels and I got
U' D' F' U' B2 L' D2 L' D2 B2 L F2 L'B' L F2 U B2 U' B D B D' B D B D' (27)
guusrs
Veteran
Yesterdays Dutch Open FMC scramble:
L2 R2 U' F2 L2 U2 F2 D L R' D' L2 D B2 U' F' R' U2 L U
results:
L2 R2 U' F2 L2 U2 F2 D L R' D' L2 D B2 U' F' R' U2 L U
results:
Erik Akkersdijk 26 moves, build a nice f2l with 3 corners remaining: F L B2 F D B2 R2 B' D2 (2x2x3) F L' F2 U' F' U L' F2 L F (19). Did a non-optimal insertion, actually, it was the first insertion he ever did!. Could have been 25 if he knew, but he is the only person ever with two sub-27 results!
Sebastian Auroux, 30 moves, forced LL skip, started with someting U R2 L B2 D2 D' F' L' F
Maarten Smit, 31 moves, did premoves [R2 F2 B2] and built a very short 2x2x3 block: F2 D2 R' D' L B' (6+3) and continued with f2l: R2 U2 R U2 R2 (11+3)
Me: got lost in very promising inverse scramble ([F2] F2, note: moves between [] means pre-moves) I think I wanted a sub-27 (my PB) too much. and wrote down backup solution wrong!
Sebastian Auroux, 30 moves, forced LL skip, started with someting U R2 L B2 D2 D' F' L' F
Maarten Smit, 31 moves, did premoves [R2 F2 B2] and built a very short 2x2x3 block: F2 D2 R' D' L B' (6+3) and continued with f2l: R2 U2 R U2 R2 (11+3)
Me: got lost in very promising inverse scramble ([F2] F2, note: moves between [] means pre-moves) I think I wanted a sub-27 (my PB) too much. and wrote down backup solution wrong!
okayama
Veteran
Congrats Erik for your awesome record!
Looks nice scramble, but I couldn't find such a decent solution.
Solution 1: F2 L' D' B R' F R' B' F D B' D F D' B D' L D' L' R' U2 R D2 R' U2 R L2 U R2 F2 (30 HTM)
NISS solve.
(Normal)
Pre-scramble: L2 U R2 F2
2x2x2 block: F2 L'
More 2x2x1 block: D' B R'
F2L minus 1 slot: F R' B' F2
(Inverse)
Pre-scramble: F2 B R F' R B' D L' F2
F2L minus 1 slot: F2 R2 U' L2 *
Orient edges: D2 L D L'
All but 3 corners: D B' D F' D' B D' F
Correction: F2 B R F' R B' D L' F2
Insert at *: R' U2 R D2 R' U2 R D2
Solution 2: F2 L' D' L B' L R' F R2 L' U R U' L U R2 U2 L U' F' U2 F U L' B L2 B2 D' L2 (29 HTM)
Pre-scramble: B L2 B2 D' L2
2x2x3 block: F2 L' D' L B' L
F2L minus 1 slot: R' F R
Orient edges: R * U R'
All but 3 corners: U2 L U' F' U2 F U L'
Correction: B L2 B2 D' L2
Insert at *: L' U R U' L U R' U'
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okayama
Veteran
I had a time to try it, and got 34 moves.
Interesting. I hope other FMC guys would try it.
Solution: L F D2 U' B L U' R2 U2 R' U D2 L' B U' L' U B D' L U' L' D L U B L' B' L' B2 L' B L2 D' (34 HTM)
Pre-scramble: D'
2x2x1 block: L F D2 U' B L
2x2x3 block: U' R2 U2 R' U D2
Orient edges: L' B U' L' U
All but 3 corners: B * L B L' B' L' B2 L' B L2
Correction: D'
Insert at *: D' L U' L' D L U L'
Hard scramble for me, too. Any 1-move makes no c/e pair (as you pointed out), all edges are wrongly oriented, so I have no clue where to start.
Another try, the same start as above:
Pre-scramble: B2 D'
1st 2x2x1 block: L F D2 U' B L
2nd 2x2x1 block: U' R' U2 R2
Expand to 3x2x1: F'
F2L minus 1 slot: U' R U2 D2
but I couldn't find a good continuation.
Pre-scramble: D'
2x2x1 block: L F D2 U' B L
2x2x3 block: U' R2 U2 R' U D2
Orient edges: L' B U' L' U
All but 3 corners: B * L B L' B' L' B2 L' B L2
Correction: D'
Insert at *: D' L U' L' D L U L'
Hard scramble for me, too. Any 1-move makes no c/e pair (as you pointed out), all edges are wrongly oriented, so I have no clue where to start.
Another try, the same start as above:
Pre-scramble: B2 D'
1st 2x2x1 block: L F D2 U' B L
2nd 2x2x1 block: U' R' U2 R2
Expand to 3x2x1: F'
F2L minus 1 slot: U' R U2 D2
but I couldn't find a good continuation.
@Conrad
I found that your first solution could be shortened to 32 HTM.
EO: F R L B' U' D' F (7)
Line+Pair: * U' R' U' (3/10)
RH Side: D2 R2 L D2 R (5/15)
F2L-1 + 1x2x2: D' L D L' D2 (5/20)
4-corners: L D + L D' (4/24)
Insert at *: R' D2 R U' R' D2 R U (6 moves cancel)
Insert at +: B R' B' L B R B' L' (2 moves cancel)
Line+Pair: * U' R' U' (3/10)
RH Side: D2 R2 L D2 R (5/15)
F2L-1 + 1x2x2: D' L D L' D2 (5/20)
4-corners: L D + L D' (4/24)
Insert at *: R' D2 R U' R' D2 R U (6 moves cancel)
Insert at +: B R' B' L B R B' L' (2 moves cancel)
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PalashD
Regular
I had a time to try it, and got 34 moves.
Interesting. I hope other FMC guys would try it.
Solution: L F D2 U' B L U' R2 U2 R' U D2 L' B U' L' U B D' L U' L' D L U B L' B' L' B2 L' B L2 D' (34 HTM)
Pre-scramble: D'
2x2x1 block: L F D2 U' B L
2x2x3 block: U' R2 U2 R' U D2
Orient edges: L' B U' L' U
All but 3 corners: B * L B L' B' L' B2 L' B L2
Correction: D'
Insert at *: D' L U' L' D L U L'
Hard scramble for me, too. Any 1-move makes no c/e pair (as you pointed out), all edges are wrongly oriented, so I have no clue where to start.
Another try, the same start as above:
Pre-scramble: B2 D'
1st 2x2x1 block: L F D2 U' B L
2nd 2x2x1 block: U' R' U2 R2
Expand to 3x2x1: F'
F2L minus 1 slot: U' R U2 D2
but I couldn't find a good continuation.
@Conrad
I found that your first solution could be shortened to 32 HTM.
EO: F R L B' U' D' F (7)
Line+Pair: * U' R' U' (3/10)
RH Side: D2 R2 L D2 R (5/15)
F2L-1 + 1x2x2: D' L D L' D2 (5/20)
4-corners: L D + L D' (4/24)
Insert at *: R' D2 R U' R' D2 R U (6 moves cancel)
Insert at +: B R' B' L B R B' L' (2 moves cancel)
I also tried some stupid block building got the following bad skeleton in 22 moves
R' F2 U' L' B2 D(2x2x1)
F L F U' B(2x2x2)
F(2x2x1)
L R F' R' L D2 L
B D B'
2 misoriented corners and a parity remains so it is no good.
okayama
Veteran
Some of my tries with your start:
R' F2 U' L' B2 D(2x2x1)
F L F U' B(2x2x2)
F(2x2x1)
L2 F R' D' R2 F' R' L(F2L minus 1 slot)
D' B D B'(Orient edges)
D2 R' D L' D' L R(All but 3 corners)
Hmm. 31 HTM skeleton is also not so good...
Next try:
Scramble: F U' F2 D' B U R' F' L D' R' U' L U B' D2 R' F U2 D2
Solution: R' F2 R' D2 R U R' D2 R2 B L D F U' B U F2 U' R' U R2 F2 D' F D2 L D' L' F D' F' D (32 HTM)
Two c/e pairs: R' F2 (same as yours)
1st 2x2x1 block: U + R B L
2nd 2x2x1 block: D F' U'
Make 2x2x3 block: B * R' U R2
F2L minus 1 slot: F2 D' F D2 L D' L'
All but 4 corners: F D' F' D
Insert at *: B' U F2 U' B U F2 U'
Insert at +: U' R' D2 R U R' D2 R
32 moves again, still not Sub 30. Hard scramble!
F L F U' B(2x2x2)
F(2x2x1)
L2 F R' D' R2 F' R' L(F2L minus 1 slot)
D' B D B'(Orient edges)
D2 R' D L' D' L R(All but 3 corners)
Hmm. 31 HTM skeleton is also not so good...
Next try:
Scramble: F U' F2 D' B U R' F' L D' R' U' L U B' D2 R' F U2 D2
Solution: R' F2 R' D2 R U R' D2 R2 B L D F U' B U F2 U' R' U R2 F2 D' F D2 L D' L' F D' F' D (32 HTM)
Two c/e pairs: R' F2 (same as yours)
1st 2x2x1 block: U + R B L
2nd 2x2x1 block: D F' U'
Make 2x2x3 block: B * R' U R2
F2L minus 1 slot: F2 D' F D2 L D' L'
All but 4 corners: F D' F' D
Insert at *: B' U F2 U' B U F2 U'
Insert at +: U' R' D2 R U R' D2 R
32 moves again, still not Sub 30. Hard scramble!
Last edited:
eastamazonantidote
Veteran
Scramble: F U' F2 D' B U R' F' L D' R' U' L U B' D2 R' F U2 D2
Start (Leaving 6 corners): B' R' D' L' F' U B F2 R' F2 R2 D2 R2 U R2 D2 F2 D2 F2 U (21)
EDIT: This is that "hardest scramble"
Start (Leaving 6 corners): B' R' D' L' F' U B F2 R' F2 R2 D2 R2 U R2 D2 F2 D2 F2 U (21)
EO: B' R' D' L' F' U B (7)
Separate U/D edges into U/D layers: F2 R' (2)
Solve E slice: F2 R2 (2)
Leave 6 corners: D2 R2 U R2 D2 F2 D2 F2 U (21)
I'm horrible with insertions, so I imagine there's a decent ending here, but here's a nice skeleton to work off of. You can even shorten it by 1 move if you leave all the corners, but I thought 6 was better than 8.
Separate U/D edges into U/D layers: F2 R' (2)
Solve E slice: F2 R2 (2)
Leave 6 corners: D2 R2 U R2 D2 F2 D2 F2 U (21)
I'm horrible with insertions, so I imagine there's a decent ending here, but here's a nice skeleton to work off of. You can even shorten it by 1 move if you leave all the corners, but I thought 6 was better than 8.
EDIT: This is that "hardest scramble"
PalashD
Regular
another bad skeleton (it is the same but a bit improved this time)
premove: L
R' F2 U' L' B2 D(2X2X1)
LFU'B(2X2X2)
LF2L'D2L'(2X2X3)
FLDL'FD2F'D2FD2F'(EO+F2L-1)
Cubenovice
Forever Slow
My solution to weekly 43 = 39 HTM
I think my block building is improving but I really do not get how you guys get to the "leaves 3 corners stage" so I had to sneak in a PLL skip to get this result...
Feel free to comment.
R F R D R D 2x2x2 6/6
F U2 R F2 U F2 2x2x3 6/12
R' F B' R' B F' EO 1st part 6/18
F' U' F EO 2nd part 3/21
R2 U' R2 U R 3rd F2L slot 5/26
R U' R' U2 R U' R' F2L 7/33
U' pre- AUF 1/34
R U R' U R U2 R' One Sune to finish them all 7/41
2 moves cancelled = 39
R F R D R D F U2 R F2 U F2 R' F B' R' B F2 U' F R2 U' R2 U R2 U' R' U2 R U' R' U' R U R' U R U2 R'
I think my block building is improving but I really do not get how you guys get to the "leaves 3 corners stage" so I had to sneak in a PLL skip to get this result...
Feel free to comment.
R F R D R D 2x2x2 6/6
F U2 R F2 U F2 2x2x3 6/12
R' F B' R' B F' EO 1st part 6/18
F' U' F EO 2nd part 3/21
R2 U' R2 U R 3rd F2L slot 5/26
R U' R' U2 R U' R' F2L 7/33
U' pre- AUF
1/34R U R' U R U2 R' One Sune to finish them all 7/41
2 moves cancelled = 39
R F R D R D F U2 R F2 U F2 R' F B' R' B F2 U' F R2 U' R2 U R2 U' R' U2 R U' R' U' R U R' U R U2 R'
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irontwig
Veteran
Leaving three corners is pretty tricky, I find it easier to leave five corners.
Cride5
Premium Member
Nice to see folks trying out this scramble. I find it really interesting that humans find it difficult as well. Asside from lack of oriented edges, I wonder if there are any other properties of this scramble which make it difficult? Distance of each piece from its neighbours perhaps... food for thought...
@okayama some great solutions from you - as always. Nice find on the 2-insertion finish on my original attempt. I think I should pay more attention to that approach in future.
If it were two 3-cycles then it would be solvable with two easy insertions. Unfortunately this isn't, so if using only corner 3-cycles you would need at least three (probably too many). Finishing with 4 or 5 corners is much better because it (almost) guarantees that at most two insertions are needed. I say almost because there's always the nasty case of corners twisted in place.
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guusrs
Veteran
In the hour I got this for the "hardest" scramble (F U' F2 D' B U R' F' L D' R' U' L U B' D2 R' F U2 D2):
pre-moves [D2 U' F']
2x2x3: U' L R' F D2 R' B R2 D' L B U' (12+3)
F2L: L' B D2 B' D2 (17+3)
LL: D' L' B' L D2 R2 U2 F' U2 R2 D' L' (28+3)
pre-move correction: D2 U' F' (31)
pfff, still no sub 30!
pre-moves [D2 U' F']
2x2x3: U' L R' F D2 R' B R2 D' L B U' (12+3)
F2L: L' B D2 B' D2 (17+3)
LL: D' L' B' L D2 R2 U2 F' U2 R2 D' L' (28+3)
pre-move correction: D2 U' F' (31)
pfff, still no sub 30!
PalashD
Regular
My solution to weekly 43 = 39 HTM
I think my block building is improving but I really do not get how you guys get to the "leaves 3 corners stage" so I had to sneak in a PLL skip to get this result...
Feel free to comment.
R F R D R D 2x2x2 6/6
F U2 R F2 U F2 2x2x3 6/12
R' F B' R' B F' EO 1st part 6/18
F' U' F EO 2nd part 3/21
R2 U' R2 U R 3rd F2L slot 5/26
R U' R' U2 R U' R' F2L 7/33
U' pre- AUF
R U R' U R U2 R' One Sune to finish them all 7/41
2 moves cancelled = 39
R F R D R D F U2 R F2 U F2 R' F B' R' B F2 U' F R2 U' R2 U R2 U' R' U2 R U' R' U' R U R' U R U2 R'
Just try to leave as little as possible while building a skeleton. Leaving just 3 corners is the best because you will have to do only one insertion. Which is usually 8 moves for corners and 6/10 moves for edges. So the less you leave the lesser number of insertions you have to do. If you dont know commutators there is a BH tutorial by Byu in the tutorials sections. Learn from it.
Tim Major
Platinum Member
Weekly 43: 1. U2 F R D' F' L2 U R U' L D' L2 F' R2 D F L D'
NISS solve.
Normal Scramble: R' D F' L' F' L R2 F2 R' U' B U B' U2 F U F (17)
Apply F' U' F' U2 B U' B' U R F2 R2 L' F L F D' R as premoves to inverse.
Inverse scramble: L' U L
Now I can either do a 3 edge cycle, then a 3 corner cycle, so I'd be finished with 20 move skeleton. However, I suck at edge insertions, so instead I reduced to 5 corners: U F U' F'
Now I only had a few minutes left (5~) so I felt I didn't have time to look for two insertions. So instead, I just did a 3 corner cycle to make it just 3 corners left. I made sure to do it so there were moves cancelled: F' D' F U F' D F
So my skeleton was (inverse scramble): L' U L U F U' F' F' D' F U F' D F F' U' F' U2 B U' B' U R F2 * R2 L' F L F D' R
Insert at *: F D' F' U2 F D F' U2
4 moves cancelled.
Final solution:
R' D F' L' F' L R2 U2 F D' F' U2 F D F R' U' B U B' U2 F U D' F U' F' D F2 U F' U' L' U' L 35 HTM
Would a 3 edge cycle, and a 3 corner cycle be more efficient, if used after the initial 20 moves? I just suck at edge insertions, so I decided to just get a corner insertion, and a corner comm that cancelled. I'm guessing there was probably a better insertion, and also, something better instead of the linear corner comm.
NISS solve.
Normal Scramble: R' D F' L' F' L R2 F2 R' U' B U B' U2 F U F (17)
Apply F' U' F' U2 B U' B' U R F2 R2 L' F L F D' R as premoves to inverse.
Inverse scramble: L' U L
Now I can either do a 3 edge cycle, then a 3 corner cycle, so I'd be finished with 20 move skeleton. However, I suck at edge insertions, so instead I reduced to 5 corners: U F U' F'
Now I only had a few minutes left (5~) so I felt I didn't have time to look for two insertions. So instead, I just did a 3 corner cycle to make it just 3 corners left. I made sure to do it so there were moves cancelled: F' D' F U F' D F
So my skeleton was (inverse scramble): L' U L U F U' F' F' D' F U F' D F F' U' F' U2 B U' B' U R F2 * R2 L' F L F D' R
Insert at *: F D' F' U2 F D F' U2
4 moves cancelled.
Final solution:
R' D F' L' F' L R2 U2 F D' F' U2 F D F R' U' B U B' U2 F U D' F U' F' D F2 U F' U' L' U' L 35 HTM
Would a 3 edge cycle, and a 3 corner cycle be more efficient, if used after the initial 20 moves? I just suck at edge insertions, so I decided to just get a corner insertion, and a corner comm that cancelled. I'm guessing there was probably a better insertion, and also, something better instead of the linear corner comm.
rahulkadukar
Veteran
I had a doubt is a cube rotation counted as a move or not, also are we even allowed to turn the cube ?
