[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[RyanReese09]

i thought zbf2l had more algorithm/cases then that?

im assuming the site assumes u can adapt?

Did you notice that once you click on a case there are several algorithms?

no sir ty

 

[riffz]

i thought zbf2l had more algorithm/cases then that?

im assuming the site assumes u can adapt?

Did you notice that once you click on a case there are several algorithms?

no sir ty

 

[eastamazonantidote]

What algorithm set did you guys use? Like, where did you learn your algorithms?
Also, what kinda algorithms should i know (besides ZBF2L and ZBLL algorithms). anything you guys think i should learn?

also, im reading the links, etc, should i use the wiki for the algorithms? lmk
rawr

edit-place for zbf2l algorithms? I found the wiki algorithms for zbll (the 7 groups) yet i can't find a good zbf2l site that has all the case

Check my sig. I'm still updating the H set (which is what I'm learning right now), but everything else is on the wiki (thanks to Cride5). You should know OLL because some ZBF2L cases are terrible and you want to skip those. Jason Baum has the best and maybe only complete set of ZBF2L online. I don't remember if Chris does or not, but his you need to be able to mirror to right hand.

 

[RyanReese09]

What algorithm set did you guys use? Like, where did you learn your algorithms?
Also, what kinda algorithms should i know (besides ZBF2L and ZBLL algorithms). anything you guys think i should learn?

also, im reading the links, etc, should i use the wiki for the algorithms? lmk
rawr

edit-place for zbf2l algorithms? I found the wiki algorithms for zbll (the 7 groups) yet i can't find a good zbf2l site that has all the case

Check my sig. I'm still updating the H set (which is what I'm learning right now), but everything else is on the wiki (thanks to Cride5). You should know OLL because some ZBF2L cases are terrible and you want to skip those. Jason Baum has the best and maybe only complete set of ZBF2L online. I don't remember if Chris does or not, but his you need to be able to mirror to right hand.

id like to not try all the algs on the wiki, but anyway, would u recommend those algs you posted? any you dont like?
you say there are bad cases, which exactly?

can you possibly put titles on top of each set? aka t, h, etc. not that its hard to know, it's just nice

if yours are more dependant on style, then please say so, and il just do wiki algs so i find my best fit, but if you think urs are very good then lmk rawr :3

edit- total algs for zbll? (or cases rather), zbf2l? guessing 501, does 21 of that include pll?
edit-i know full OLL too, does that count for 57 cases?
edit-what other algs should i learn? aka CLL? MGLS(lol)? etc, what do you zb'ers recommend?

 

[eastamazonantidote]

id like to not try all the algs on the wiki, but anyway, would u recommend those algs you posted? any you dont like?
you say there are bad cases, which exactly?
The algs are the same. At least most of them. Cride5 took my algs and put them online (I think he did more work than I with this publication). I've updated my sets as I've learned them. I don't keep track of the wiki's list.

can you possibly put titles on top of each set? aka t, h, etc. not that its hard to know, it's just nice
The COLL case is enough to know where you are, but I'll think about it. The problem is that each COLL set fits perfectly on one page, and I don't want to change that.

if yours are more dependant on style, then please say so, and il just do wiki algs so i find my best fit, but if you think urs are very good then lmk rawr :3
The advantage to the document is that you can edit it and take it on the go (where there is no internet) and print it more easily. The wiki requires clicking around online but is faster to load than a document. I like my format and I really take pride in what I accomplished. Cride5 should feel the same about his work. Do what works for you.

edit- total algs for zbll? (or cases rather), zbf2l? guessing 501, does 21 of that include pll?
Depends on how you count. The FFBB and FBFB H sets each have 4 U2 mirrors. So you could call it 493 or 501. I prefer 501 because that is how many you need to recognize. But 493 (ZBLL) + 306 (ZBF2L) + 1 (solved) = 800 cases, which looks much better than 807 (501 + 306). And that does include PLL, yes.
edit-i know full OLL too, does that count for 57 cases?
No, sorry (I tried to get away with this before). OLL is more closely related to ZBF2L.
edit-what other algs should i learn? aka CLL? MGLS(lol)? etc, what do you zb'ers recommend?
If you do not know COLL, learn it now. You need to be able to recognize COLL cases before you can recognize ZBLL cases effectively.

 

[ThatGuy]

If you do not know COLL, learn it now. You need to be able to recognize COLL cases before you can recognize ZBLL cases effectively.

Not necessarily true. I only know one set of COLLs, but I tried the ZBLLs for those. It's easier for me to create a unique recognition for a certain case ie bars, opposite colors etc.

 

[RyanReese09]

The algs are the same. At least most of them. Cride5 took my algs and put them online (I think he did more work than I with this publication). I've updated my sets as I've learned them. I don't keep track of the wiki's list.
mkay. im gonna just do the wiki. i dont like learning algs without a computer near me anyway

The COLL case is enough to know where you are, but I'll think about it. The problem is that each COLL set fits perfectly on one page, and I don't want to change that.
k
The advantage to the document is that you can edit it and take it on the go (where there is no internet) and print it more easily. The wiki requires clicking around online but is faster to load than a document. I like my format and I really take pride in what I accomplished. Cride5 should feel the same about his work. Do what works for you.
kk
Depends on how you count. The FFBB and FBFB H sets each have 4 U2 mirrors. So you could call it 493 or 501. I prefer 501 because that is how many you need to recognize. But 493 (ZBLL) + 306 (ZBF2L) + 1 (solved) = 800 cases, which looks much better than 807 (501 + 306). And that does include PLL, yes.
i prefer to count as 501. and ok ty
No, sorry (I tried to get away with this before). OLL is more closely related to ZBF2L.
haha damn
If you do not know COLL, learn it now. You need to be able to recognize COLL cases before you can recognize ZBLL cases effectively.
ok ty

tyvm sir

 

[riffz]

If you do not know COLL, learn it now. You need to be able to recognize COLL cases before you can recognize ZBLL cases effectively.

Not necessarily true. I only know one set of COLLs, but I tried the ZBLLs for those. It's easier for me to create a unique recognition for a certain case ie bars, opposite colors etc.

His point wasn't that you need to know all the COLLs before learning a ZBLL set. He was just saying that it's important to understand the corner recognition for COLL because it's used to recognize ZBLL cases.

 

[Sir E Brum]

If you do not know COLL, learn it now. You need to be able to recognize COLL cases before you can recognize ZBLL cases effectively.

Not necessarily true. I only know one set of COLLs, but I tried the ZBLLs for those. It's easier for me to create a unique recognition for a certain case ie bars, opposite colors etc.

His point wasn't that you need to know all the COLLs before learning a ZBLL set. He was just saying that it's important to understand the corner recognition for COLL because it's used to recognize ZBLL cases.

I think it's a really good idea to learn all of COLL before ZBLL because the COLL algs are part of ZBLL anyway. It is a good stepping stone. Technically I am 40/472 ZBLL algs just because I know COLL. I just don't know what EP I will have and that's why its COLL and not ZBLL.

 

[riffz]

If you do not know COLL, learn it now. You need to be able to recognize COLL cases before you can recognize ZBLL cases effectively.

Not necessarily true. I only know one set of COLLs, but I tried the ZBLLs for those. It's easier for me to create a unique recognition for a certain case ie bars, opposite colors etc.

His point wasn't that you need to know all the COLLs before learning a ZBLL set. He was just saying that it's important to understand the corner recognition for COLL because it's used to recognize ZBLL cases.

I think it's a really good idea to learn all of COLL before ZBLL because the COLL algs are part of ZBLL anyway. It is a good stepping stone. Technically I am 40/472 ZBLL algs just because I know COLL. I just don't know what EP I will have and that's why its COLL and not ZBLL.

Oh yes I definitely agree. I just figured eastamazonantidote misunderstood Ryan Reese's statement.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

Oh yes I definitely agree. I just figured eastamazonantidote misunderstood Ryan Reese's statement.

No I think I got it. I wrote that little blurb, but just put it in his quote so I could answer all the questions. ThatGuy is right, though: you don't have to recognize COLL -> EP. But it is probably the fastest method and only requires 2 faces to determine. And you need to know the COLL algs anyway to why not get 40 out of the way?

 

[riffz]

Oh yes I definitely agree. I just figured eastamazonantidote misunderstood Ryan Reese's statement.

No I think I got it. I wrote that little blurb, but just put it in his quote so I could answer all the questions. ThatGuy is right, though: you don't have to recognize COLL -> EP. But it is probably the fastest method and only requires 2 faces to determine. And you need to know the COLL algs anyway to why not get 40 out of the way?

Oh my bad. I meant to say that "That Guy" misunderstood, not you. And I know you don't NEED to recognize COLL->EP.

 

[RyanReese09]

so word is i should learn COLL ok?

anyway, im looking at all the zbll cases, how did you guys memorize it? (using wiki images ofc)

any special tricks to memorizing? and what exactly am i supposed to gain from learning COLL? (I'm going to learn it, but im just wondering)

also, how did you memorize COLL?

 

[Innocence]

so word is i should learn COLL ok?

anyway, im looking at all the zbll cases, how did you guys memorize it? (using wiki images ofc)

any special tricks to memorizing? and what exactly am i supposed to gain from learning COLL? (I'm going to learn it, but im just wondering)

also, how did you memorize COLL?

With my brain. Went to a subset, and did the alg a couple times until I could do it without looking, and then practised it WITH recognition every nth repetition when it was the right case, repeated for all the algs in the subset, and then used brunson's drill sergeant to train that particular subset (or 3).

 

[RyanReese09]

obviously brain, however how would u differentiate the cases? (especially for zb, thats mainly what i need to know, COLL wont be a problem really, i just want to learn proper recognition (if any))

 

[Innocence]

obviously brain, however how would u differentiate the cases? (especially for zb, thats mainly what i need to know, COLL wont be a problem really, i just want to learn proper recognition (if any))

Oh, so you weren't really asking the question you asked. That's fine

Recognition I learned was that used by Lars Vandenbergh among others, and has cases such as

Spoiler

F F
L R

There are different "recognition stickers" for each case. For some they're easy to figure out, for others they're harder. The recognition stickers are (In the format of the coll cases):

Spoiler

Chameleon:

Spoiler

ULB URB

FLU FRU

U:

Spoiler

ULB URB

FLU FRU

H:

Spoiler

ULB URB

ULF URF

Pi:

Spoiler

ULB URB

ULF URF

Triplesune/Bowtie:

Spoiler

ULF URB

FUL URF

Sune:

Spoiler

ULF URB

FUL URF

Antisune:

Spoiler

ULB URF

ULF FUR

So,

Spoiler

F F
L R

This basically means that on the recognition stickers, the top two will be the same colour (e.g. Red) and the bottom two will be the two adjacent colours (e.g. Blue and Green). I tend to remember it like "Bar on top, opposites on bottom". Whatever floats your boat.

 

[RyanReese09]

ok so i would differentiate them based on the corners actually oriented, and then what stickers are the same/different/etc etc. stachu korick showed me in our hotel room, i understand, although tomorrow night or tuesday night ill actually learn some algs and get a grip on it. long road ahead of me

 

[riffz]

ok so i would differentiate them based on the corners actually oriented, and then what stickers are the same/different/etc etc. stachu korick showed me in our hotel room, i understand, although tomorrow night or tuesday night ill actually learn some algs and get a grip on it. long road ahead of me

Just watch Rowe's videos on recognizing CLL for 2x2. It's the exact same thing, just different algs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1QztZylneU (that's the one set)

Rowan also has CLL videos and he uses slightly different recog for some cases but I'm too lazy to find them.

 

[eastamazonantidote]

so word is i should learn COLL ok?

anyway, im looking at all the zbll cases, how did you guys memorize it? (using wiki images ofc)
Brute force and with difficulty. You learn how to learn algs as you go along, and being questionable about ZBLL is not an option if you want to learn it. I'm farther along than my sig suggests for pure memo, but execution and recall are the big issues. Learning the cases is the easy part. Executing in reasonable time is difficult.

any special tricks to memorizing? and what exactly am i supposed to gain from learning COLL? (I'm going to learn it, but im just wondering)
You are supposed to gain an understanding of how difficult the road ahead will be, a head start on recognition, and a better understanding of who you are as a cuber. Many find COLL just isn't worth it. This is why you don't dive right into ZB and why Dan Harris is a genius.

also, how did you memorize COLL?
Months of practice. Months of revising recognition. Months of revising algs to fit new recognition. Then finding a surge in COLL interest on the forums and got pissed off. I spent 9 months getting my algs to where I like them. I just recognize sticker pairs. Did you check out the COLL sheet in my ZBLL page? Or search the forums (blah or byu- can't remember- had a great page)?

 

[RyanReese09]

Brute force and with difficulty. You learn how to learn algs as you go along, and being questionable about ZBLL is not an option if you want to learn it. I'm farther along than my sig suggests for pure memo, but execution and recall are the big issues. Learning the cases is the easy part. Executing in reasonable time is difficult.
im not being questionable about learning zbll. ive always wanted to do something of this nature. i was just wondering how to differentiate. i know how now thanks to my thread, ty. im going to start learing zbll tomorrow hwen i get home

You are supposed to gain an understanding of how difficult the road ahead will be, a head start on recognition, and a better understanding of who you are as a cuber. Many find COLL just isn't worth it. This is why you don't dive right into ZB and why Dan Harris is a genius.
i have decided i wanna do zb for 4 days now, ive been reading up on it, trying to find different variations of the method (as you know) etc etc. believe me, if i didnt wanna do this badly i wouldnt bother wasting my time trying to learn ~500 case method lol

Months of practice. Months of revising recognition. Months of revising algs to fit new recognition. Then finding a surge in COLL interest on the forums and got pissed off. I spent 9 months getting my algs to where I like them. I just recognize sticker pairs. Did you check out the COLL sheet in my ZBLL page? Or search the forums (blah or byu- can't remember- had a great page)?

i did not, i checked out the zbll stuff although not COLL. ill check it out at a later time.
should i just learn COLL first and get it out of th eway?

i searched this thread for multiple sources, and decided alg wise to just use the wiki