[Member Intro] ZZ is the future

[WombatWarrior17]

zz is just bad. Roux is superior.

Do you have a supporting argument, or are you just here to share a personal opinion? I don't mind people sharing opinions, but please back them up with actual facts.

Also, as @Competition Cuber said, I knew that this would happen. XD

 

[ImmolatedMarmoset]

Do you have a supporting argument, or are you just here to share a personal opinion? I don't mind people sharing opinions, but please back them up with actual facts.

Also, as @Competition Cuber said, I knew that this would happen. XD

Roux: (in decreasing order of effectiveness as evidence)
-low move count
-low alg count
-good for OH
-ergonomic
-good recog
-decent lookahead
-fast CMLLs
-proven to be fast (Kian! Iuri! Kavin!)
-very, very sexy looking.

 

[WombatWarrior17]

Roux: (in decreasing order of effectiveness as evidence)
-low move count
-low alg count
-good for OH
-ergonomic
-good recog
-decent lookahead
-fast CMLLs
-proven to be fast (Kian! Iuri! Kavin!)
-very, very sexy looking.

I was referring to him saying that ZZ is bad, I think Roux is awesome.

 

[u Cube]

I was referring to him saying that ZZ is bad, I think Roux is awesome.

#1 Eoline is a complete waste of moves as it sucks your inspection not letting you plan into fb unless you are some zz god.
#2 R to L transitions suck
#3 ls solutions suddenly become a lot worse. Even though it is all 2 gen the solutions are longer than if you did one rotation since you can get some pretty crappy
#4 COLL is sucky sometimes and zbll takes too long to recognize

Now, you may be saying me talking about how rotations can be beneficial is purely hypocritical as I am a roux user and unless you are a pure noob at cubing you would know it doesn't have rotations. Well the difference is you can use the R wide and M layers as you please and will ZZ you cant and that makes the solutions awful. Honestly I don't know why anybody would use zz except for as a method meant purely for fun because it is purely invalid in all of the wca events. Honestly I believe petrus would be better than this excuse of a method.

But wait, there is still hope. The savior of ZZ has arrived: EOCross. For one, you don't have those sucky blind spots at the dl and dr positions. But all four reasons I listed above still apply and then the great question of the day comes up: If you want to use EOCross, why not eliminate the downsides by just using CFOP?

Some random zz user: The rotationlessness make it bettrrrrrr
Me: Nope. Rotations eliminate the r to l transitions and the crappy ls solutions. Also, EOCross isn't so much more efficient (if any more efficient) that you should sacrifice the garbage inspection lookahead just to supply your needs of no rotations.

What about ll benifits? If you really must orient edges then do it during f2l. Feliks has a video on it so go watch.

So.... ZZ is garbage and the big three is now the big two.

 

[WombatWarrior17]

#1 Eoline is a complete waste of moves as it sucks your inspection not letting you plan into fb unless you are some zz god.
#2 R to L transitions suck
#3 ls solutions suddenly become a lot worse. Even though it is all 2 gen the solutions are longer than if you did one rotation since you can get some pretty crappy
#4 COLL is sucky sometimes and zbll takes too long to recognize

#1 Yes, EOLine does suck.
#2 Sometimes, yes. But this can be helped with practice.
#3 This is only for 2 cases in F2L, tbh. And ZZ eliminates a lot of the crap cases from CFOP.
#4 COLL can be sucky. ZBLL recog is something that you need to practice but can become very quick.

Now, you may be saying me talking about how rotations can be beneficial is purely hypocritical as I am a roux user and unless you are a pure noob at cubing you would know it doesn't have rotations. Well the difference is you can use the R wide and M layers as you please and will ZZ you cant and that makes the solutions awful.

How does this make them awful? I don't really see your point here.

Honestly I don't know why anybody would use zz except for as a method meant purely for fun because it is purely invalid in all of the wca events. Honestly I believe petrus would be better than this excuse of a method.

For one, calling it an "excuse of a method" is just plain rude. And it may not be good for 4x4+, but neither is Roux. ZZ is great for OH, Feet, EO for FMC, and 3x3. So it's not "purely invalid in all of the wca events"

But wait, there is still hope. The savior of ZZ has arrived: EOCross. For one, you don't have those sucky blind spots at the dl and dr positions. But all four reasons I listed above still apply and then the great question of the day comes up: If you want to use EOCross, why not eliminate the downsides by just using CFOP?

Better TPS, Lookahead, and automation. And only two of your points at the beginning actually somewhat apply to this.

Some random zz user: The rotationlessness make it bettrrrrrr
Me: Nope. Rotations eliminate the r to l transitions and the crappy ls solutions. Also, EOCross isn't so much more efficient (if any more efficient) that you should sacrifice the garbage inspection lookahead just to supply your needs of no rotations.

Again, no need for a personal attack on people. ZZ (with EOCross and full ZBLL) is about 5-7 moves better than advanced CFOP, so it is more efficient. I agree that inspection lookahead is a weak point with ZZ, but not enough to call the method trash.

If I may quote Jay's comment from a video talking about his video (which I will supply the link for):

"Main points I'm definitely going to give you are benefits with F2L recognition that I legitimately just didn't consider due to ZZ inexperience, as well as CN not actually being hard I can also definitely see ZZ being less popular than I anticipated, which almost makes me wanna try doing what Hyeon did with EOcross but with more ZBLL, could also be motivation to finally learn the sunes (I still haven't decided if I'll try exploring Roux or ZZ after I'm done trying to push my CFOP comp avg down)

There's also more influential people than Hyeon and Phil but imo making an influence in an official setting tends to be what makes the biggest influence (Think of how Kian got OH WR avg with Roux and now like a year later or something 3 of the top 6 in OH avg are Roux).

This could definitely be a case of speedcuber fanboyish bias, although I do believe in the case of Phil especially, he also did a lot with the method other than just getting fast with it (EOline + a cross edge definitely started with him I think, which I'm now thinking is probably better than EOcross but still undecided)

Lastly, your point about methods eventually finding their niche is definitely something I feel as well. CFOP definitely seems to do well for the bigger cubes, especially even layered ones, and Roux has recently found its place in OH solving"

Link to the video:

Now, if you would like to continue this discussion, it might be better to do it outside of a "New Member" thread. There is a channel in the SS Discord for ZZ, so that would be a great place to have a discussion about it. I enjoy discussing methods, so I would love to follow up there.

 

[PapaSmurf]

Basically, Wombat said everything. And there are numbers to back it up too. At least Jay has admitted that he doesn't have as much experience with ZZ and therefore hasnt considered everything (and I think that there's more to consider). Next time, before you attack a method, inform yourself properly before you make attacks. If you are influential, you can then cause people to think things which simply aren't true. I'd also much prefer to talk to someone about something if they've made an effort to self research rather than just splurge out info that they don't even fully understand. And your point about adding in rotations to pairs to make them better apply to all cases where EO isn't solved, and to maybe 1 case where it is, if you have bad left fingertricks. And the switching between L and R? Look at any fast ZZ solver (here) to see that that simply isn't the case. Also, better lookahead, fewer moves, and other things that I mentioned at the start ish of this thread. Now, move the debate to another thread that is more applicable, with rational, informed ideas rather than outright attacks on something with no good information and sources that aren't very good.

 

[u Cube]

#1 Yes, EOLine does suck.
#2 Sometimes, yes. But this can be helped with practice.
#3 This is only for 2 cases in F2L, tbh. And ZZ eliminates a lot of the crap cases from CFOP.
#4 COLL can be sucky. ZBLL recog is something that you need to practice but can become very quick.



How does this make them awful? I don't really see your point here.



For one, calling it an "excuse of a method" is just plain rude. And it may not be good for 4x4+, but neither is Roux. ZZ is great for OH, Feet, EO for FMC, and 3x3. "o it's not "purely invalid in all of the wca events"



Better TPS, Lookahead, and automation. And only two of your points at the beginning actually somewhat apply to this.



Again, no need for a personal attack on people. ZZ (with EOCross and full ZBLL) is about 5-7 moves better than advanced CFOP, so it is more efficient. I agree that inspection lookahead is a weak point with ZZ, but not enough to call the method trash.

If I may quote Jay's comment from a video talking about his video (which I will supply the link for):

"Main points I'm definitely going to give you are benefits with F2L recognition that I legitimately just didn't consider due to ZZ inexperience, as well as CN not actually being hard I can also definitely see ZZ being less popular than I anticipated, which almost makes me wanna try doing what Hyeon did with EOcross but with more ZBLL, could also be motivation to finally learn the sunes (I still haven't decided if I'll try exploring Roux or ZZ after I'm done trying to push my CFOP comp avg down)

There's also more influential people than Hyeon and Phil but imo making an influence in an official setting tends to be what makes the biggest influence (Think of how Kian got OH WR avg with Roux and now like a year later or something 3 of the top 6 in OH avg are Roux).

This could definitely be a case of speedcuber fanboyish bias, although I do believe in the case of Phil especially, he also did a lot with the method other than just getting fast with it (EOline + a cross edge definitely started with him I think, which I'm now thinking is probably better than EOcross but still undecided)

Lastly, your point about methods eventually finding their niche is definitely something I feel as well. CFOP definitely seems to do well for the bigger cubes, especially even layered ones, and Roux has recently found its place in OH solving"

Link to the video:

Now, if you would like to continue this discussion, it might be better to do it outside of a "New Member" thread. There is a channel in the SS Discord for ZZ, so that would be a great place to have a discussion about it. I enjoy discussing methods, so I would love to follow up there.

ZZ is absolutely awful for OH and Feet.

I will continue this on discord from now on but the fact that anyone would thing zz is good for fmc is just wrong. Neither is roux for that matter. But at least roux is good for oh and feet (see luri)

 

[DesertWolf]

ZZ is absolutely awful for OH and Feet.

Actually for feet it might be the better method. See Jayden Mcneill’s ramble.

I will continue this on discord from now on but the fact that anyone would thing zz is good for fmc is just wrong. Neither is roux for that matter. But at least roux is good for oh and feet (see luri)

Now for this. He never said that it was good for FMC but that eo was. Which unless you have 0 knowledge about FMC is true. EO is often used by top FMC solvers because of how it can create lower movecount blocks, etc... . Roux is good for OH yes. But for feet I think the best I’ve seen with Roux I see like a 40 something average and tbh that just isn’t good for feet. Anyone that spends just a bit of time on it can get sub-40 with cfop or ZZ (with eo cross) easily.

 

[GenTheSnail]

But for feet I think the best I’ve seen with Roux I see like a 40 something average and tbh that just isn’t good for feet. Anyone that spends just a bit of time on it can get sub-40 with cfop or ZZ (with eo cross) easily.

Quick note on Feet--

As far as I know, I'm the fastest ZZer with feet, and my official average is only 44. Yes, I have some 37 and 38 averages, but I'm not sub40 yet by any means. However, I also haven't really put in the work to get good. And my 2H and OH times are mediocre at best. I am aiming for a mid 35 average next month though, so keep your eyes peeled for that.
Roux, I believe, has a low 30 solver, though I think he also uses CFOP.


And I don't particularly want to get into this argument, but the ignorance, aggressive comments, and superlatives are honestly just funny. Don't bother arguing with someone who clearly doesn't know what they're talking about.
"It's hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it's impossible to win an argument with a stupid one." - the Internet

 

[Competition Cuber]

@WombatWarrior17 basically took over this thread.

 

[WoowyBaby]

(I don’t know if this ZZ idea belongs here)
Has anyone considered line on left (LOL lol)? It’s RUD blocks instead of RUL so you don’t have awkward regrips (btw I know eocross decreases awkward switching) and generally RUD turning is better (faster tps and you can do U and D at the same time)
Of course you have the downside of having a little more of a blind spot on the bottom and you’d have to learn LL-on-right algs.
Has anyone tested this?

 

[WombatWarrior17]

(I don’t know if this ZZ idea belongs here)
Has anyone considered line on left (LOL lol)? It’s RUD blocks instead of RUL so you don’t have awkward regrips (btw I know eocross decreases awkward switching) and generally RUD turning is better (faster tps and you can do U and D at the same time)
Of course you have the downside of having a little more of a blind spot on the bottom and you’d have to learn LL-on-right algs.
Has anyone tested this?

This belongs in the ZZ thread. But yes, this has been considered. RUD is very good, but it makes lookahead worse.

Here's the thread: https://www.speedsolving.com/threads/zz-and-zb-discussion.20834/page-118

 

[dudefaceguy]

(I don’t know if this ZZ idea belongs here)
Has anyone considered line on left (LOL lol)? It’s RUD blocks instead of RUL so you don’t have awkward regrips (btw I know eocross decreases awkward switching) and generally RUD turning is better (faster tps and you can do U and D at the same time)
Of course you have the downside of having a little more of a blind spot on the bottom and you’d have to learn LL-on-right algs.
Has anyone tested this?

If I understand you correctly, this is sort of how I do ZZ one handed. I use my left hand and put line on the left. Then I solve the U block, then rotate so the line is on the bottom, then solve the R block. Except I only solve a square and then do Heise. Never mind.

 

[miguelms11]

5. A lot of tricks during F2L.

What tricks can you use during F2L? I thought that you could do lots of tricks because of the flexibility you get during blockbuilding. Don't you lose that flexibility if you do eocross?

 

[WombatWarrior17]

What tricks can you use during F2L? I thought that you could do lots of tricks because of the flexibility you get during blockbuilding. Don't you lose that flexibility if you do eocross?

You can do some RUD stuff like Keyhole, I use it A LOT in my solves.