Top 10 Fastest Speedcubers

[FastCubeMaster]

When I made this thread, I made it to have a fun discussion about different world class speed cubers, not to create a war across the internet. If it pleases you that much, then I'll say whatever you want. You think Max and Lucas are better than Bill just because of official results? I'm fine with that! You say official solves are the only thing that matters? Whatever. You think Kian is a lot slower than he actually is? Think what you want!

Just a note - you quoted me but I didn't really say any of those things you listed, (although I agreed with them). I was just having a joke about what was previously said.
Really though, our replies can be summarised with what @Ollie said on post #57

 

[turtwig]

lol i did but i averaged the single and average

You know you'll get the exact same results, the only difference is that your numbers will be twice as small.

 

[pglewis]

No matter what metric you use: I am not in that list of 10

I may be in the top 10 list of active, right-handed, over 45 cubers who are an Aquarius, however. Narrow down the class enough and even I can be World Class.

 

[GuRoux]

i kind of like the idea of looking at average official results. something like taking the mean of the middle three results of the competitors' last five rounds of 3x3. this gives a better sense of who's the best at competing than looking at just best official result.

 

[MoyuDayanLover3]

I've revised your list into my idea of an ideal list of the top 10 speedcubers. Also, this is only for 3x3, I might make another list for other puzzles.

10. Sebastian Weyer
9. Rami Sbahi
8. Bill Wang
7. Philipp Weyer
6. Patrick Ponce
5. Max Park
4. Lucas Etter
3. Mats Valk
2. Seung Hyuk Nahm
1. FELIKS!!!

comment your opinions please

I'll ask what everyone else has been asking me. Why? It's obviously not based off of Official or Unofficial tims, so what makes you rank the cubers like you do?

We're not attacking you. If you think something different to what the WCA rankings say we want to know why. You'll just need to justify why times at home are more important than official times.

EDIT: I mean make a strong case.

This also ties in with the last one somewhat.
(note: this list only takes into account unofficial times. If you're not okay with that, then that's your problem)
10. Patrick Ponce (don't know much about him except that he's world class, so I just decided to pick him over the others)
9. Phillip Weyer (I don't know, but he seems fast)
8. Sebastian Weyer (They are the fastest brothers for a reason)
7. Lucas Etter (averages high 6-low 7, low 6 average of 12, sub-5.9 average, etc.)
6. Mats Valk (averages sub-7, gets sub 5.85 average with no reaction whatsoever, etc.)
5. Max Park (6.59 average of 1000, sub-6.3 average of 100, sub-5.8 average of 12)
4. Seung-Hyuk Nahm (averages mid-high 6, 6.09 average of 50, possibly sub 6.5 average of 100, but I'm not sure, etc.)
3. Kian Mansour (has tied UWR avg 1000, 6.39 avg 100, can consistently get really fast times)
2. Bill Wang (has tied UWR avg 1000, 6.36- average of 100, has held/holds several ytuwr's in 3x3, can get extremely fast ao5/12, etc.)
1. Feliks Zemdegs (God)

 

[Ronxu]

I'll ask what everyone else has been asking me. Why? It's obviously not based off of Official or Unofficial tims, so what makes you rank the cubers like you do?

This also ties in with the last one somewhat.
(note: this list only takes into account unofficial times. If you're not okay with that, then that's your problem)
10. Patrick Ponce (don't know much about him except that he's world class, so I just decided to pick him over the others)
9. Phillip Weyer (I don't know, but he seems fast)
8. Sebastian Weyer (They are the fastest brothers for a reason) So what?
7. Lucas Etter (averages high 6-low 7, low 6 average of 12, sub-5.9 average, etc.)
6. Mats Valk (averages sub-7, gets sub 5.85 average with no reaction whatsoever, etc.) So what?
5. Max Park (6.59 average of 1000, sub-6.3 average of 100, sub-5.8 average of 12)
4. Seung-Hyuk Nahm (averages mid-high 6, 6.09 average of 50, possibly sub 6.5 average of 100, but I'm not sure, etc.)
3. Kian Mansour (has tied UWR avg 1000, 6.39 avg 100, can consistently get really fast times) lmao dude you're funny
2. Bill Wang (has tied UWR avg 1000, 6.36- average of 100, has held/holds several ytuwr's in 3x3, can get extremely fast ao5/12, etc.)
1. Feliks Zemdegs (God) No he isn't.

 

[MoyuDayanLover3]

Okay, so I don't know much about the people past the Top 7. Let's just leave it at averages sub-7 then. I meant that though his times are really consistent and his global average is pretty much the same as Bill, since it's more rare for him to get fast singles/small averages, I'm placing him lower than Bill. Fiiiine, I'll list some reasons. He has the 3x3 UWR single, ao5, ao12, ao50, ao100, has like 50+ sub-5's on cam, a bunch of sub-6 averages on cam, several sub-4's on cam, could get sub-5's on a Zhanchi about 4-5 years ago, has the TPS YTUWR of 13.4, etc..

 

[UnspeakableRebel]

I have made what I think is a really good list of the top 10 speedcubers in 3x3. Give your opinions on it please.

10. Collin Burns
9. Philipp Weyer
8. Drew Brads
7. Alexandre Carlier
6. Bill Wang
5. Mats Valk
4. Lucas Etter
3. Seung-Hyuk Nahm
2. Feliks Zemdegs
1. Max Park

 

[turtwig]

Give your opinions on it please.

7. Alexandre Carlier

Why? Philipp Weyer has a better average and Drew Brads has a better single and average.

To be honest, the idea of listing the top 10 people is pointless. On top of the fact that almost all of them are basically personal opinion, I've yet to see a list that makes more sense than just taking official average rankings.

 

[MoyuDayanLover3]

I have made what I think is a really good list of the top 10 speedcubers in 3x3. Give your opinions on it please.

10. Collin Burns
9. Philipp Weyer
8. Drew Brads
7. Alexandre Carlier
6. Bill Wang
5. Mats Valk
4. Lucas Etter
3. Seung-Hyuk Nahm
2. Feliks Zemdegs
1. Max Park

...why? Bill Wang and Kian Mansour have the UWR average of 1000 and both have sub-6.4 average of 100's. Feliks has all the other 3x3 UWR's. Lucas isn't even sub-7, or he's barely sub-7, and Mats Valk is definitely sub-7. Those are the major things. There are other problems, but I don't think those ones are really important.

Why? Philipp Weyer has a better average and Drew Brads has a better single and average.

To be honest, the idea of listing the top 10 people is pointless. On top of the fact that almost all of them are basically personal opinion, I've yet to see a list that makes more sense than just taking official average rankings.

Are you saying Max was better than Felks for a couple months?

 

[turtwig]

Are you saying Max was better than Felks for a couple months?

Obviously there are more reasons on top of the ones that I stated. I pointed out Drew and Philipp because they were also on the list even though they both have several averages faster than Carlier's best average, but Carlier's placement on the list is more surprising as he's only ranked 19th in average. The only reasons I can think of for his placement is that he got a good single that used to be top 10 and that he did well in world finals. While he's definitely world class, he doesn't stand out in a way that would merit being in the top 10.

About Max and Feliks, I would say that after Max got the WR average, there was good reason to believe that he was or had already surpassed Feliks in speed, but after a few months, Feliks has gotten the record back and several other sub-Max averages while Max has yet to get another sub-6.45 average, so it's safe to assume that Feliks is still faster than Max.

Of course solely looking at official ranking has its flaws, and there might be some better method out there that sorts cubers, but so far I've yet to see one. Using personal judgement is definitely not going to be satisfactory.

I would say that predicting future results is a good sign of a good ranking system, so if someone makes a ranking system that can consistently predict future rankings and competition podiums better than just guessing according to competition PBs, I would consider saying that the system is better or makes more sense.

Lucas isn't even sub-7, or he's barely sub-7, and Mats Valk is definitely sub-7.

Why is Mats 'definitely' sub-7 but Lucas 'barely' sub-7? Lucas has the better competition average, and while Mats has 4 sub-7 averages and Lucas has only 2, this is probably because Mats attends way more competitions. (based on their competition performance I wouldn't say that either is 'definitely' sub-7).

 

[UnspeakableRebel]

1. Alexandre Carlier is probably the second best European speedcuber (first being Mats Valk) He gets consistent low 7 times in competition. Sure, other cubers can have better times from luck, but he gets consistent decent times.

2. Max Park is rising very fast, and I predict he will soon top Feliks' world record average. He is just amazing. That's why I put him first. Feliks is a way faster cuber and he is the best cuber in the world, but Max's times are getting better and better. He's the fastest rising speedcuber.

3. I'm not putting UWRs, ao100/1000s and other stuff in effect because UWRs can easily be created through special effects, and there are probably better UWRs that happened but just weren't on camera.

 

[turtwig]

1. Alexandre Carlier is probably the second best European speedcuber (first being Mats Valk) He gets consistent low 7 times in competition. Sure, other cubers can have better times from luck, but he gets consistent decent times.

What about Philipp and Sebastian Weyer? They have 6 and 5 sub-Carlier averages respectively. I wouldn't call that luck. And Alexandre is certainly not low-7 in comps, he has only 2 sub-7.5 averages (that's out of the 30 averages he did after his first sub-7.5).

 

[pglewis]

I thought some interesting fuel for the fire would be to take the top 1000 results for both single and avg and just count the number of appearances. Sure, it's highly flawed like anything else: it can include less active or inactive people and has a strong bias towards those who attend a lot of competitions and/or have been active for a while. Top 10 though... you can swap around and argue over the final few spots but it's definitely the usual suspects. I make no promises about the accuracy other than I think it's correct from cobbling together a quick formula. Also, it doesn't include any results from this weekend so Patrick, at the least, has a few more ticks.

Spoiler: Single

213 Feliks Zemdegs
69 Mats Valk
61 Max Park
48 Lucas Etter
38 Patrick Ponce
33 Seung Hyuk Nahm
28 Bill Wang
28 Drew Brads
25 Philipp Weyer
22 Alexandre Carlier
22 Sebastian Weyer
18 Cornelius Dieckmann
15 Collin Burns
15 Michał Pleskowicz
13 Antoine Cantin
13 Keaton Ellis
12 Phillip Lewicki
10 Jayden McNeill
10 Kevin Gerhardt

Spoiler: Average

152 Feliks Zemdegs
78 Mats Valk
51 Patrick Ponce
49 Lucas Etter
47 Philipp Weyer
46 Max Park
42 Bill Wang
42 Cornelius Dieckmann
31 Sebastian Weyer
29 Drew Brads
29 Michał Pleskowicz
26 Seung Hyuk Nahm
24 Collin Burns
23 Alexander Lau
20 Alexandre Carlier
20 Antoine Cantin
15 Jayden McNeill
14 Dario Roa Sánchez
14 Keaton Ellis
14 Yi-Fan Wu
12 Dmitry Dobrjakov
10 Carlos Méndez García-Barroso
10 Hyeon Kyo Kyoung
10 Kai-Wen Wang
10 Kevin Gerhardt
10 Michał Rzewuski

Why? Philipp Weyer has a better average and Drew Brads has a better single and average...

One thing that does stand out to me from the stats above is Alexandre is responsible for 22 of the fastest 1000 singles and 20 of the fastest 1000 averages while only having attended 28 competitions. It might be interesting to pull the number of competitions into the data and weight the list by ratio, possibly burying some of the opportunity bias.

 

[turtwig]

One thing that does stand out to me from the stats above is Alexandre is responsible for 22 of the fastest 1000 singles and 20 of the fastest 1000 averages while only having attended 28 competitions.

Based on your stats, Drew Brads has 28 singles and 29 averages with only 33 competitions and while Philipp has only 25 singles, he has 47 averages with 50 competitions. It's also worth mentioning that Alexandre was the fastest out of the three at their first competitions.

About opportunity bias, I think it could also work to benefit people that go to less competitions. Like I mentioned before, Alexandre was much faster at his first competition, getting a 13 average, while Philipp and Drew got 18 and 32 averages, respectively, if he had attended a competition earlier in his cubing career, he would've had more competitions but no more top 1000 times. It would be interesting to see if there's a good way to take into account the number of competitions fairly, though.

 

[pglewis]

Based on your stats, Drew Brads has 28 singles and 29 averages with only 33 competitions and while Philipp has only 25 singles, he has 47 averages with 50 competitions. It's also worth mentioning that Alexandre was the fastest out of the three at their first competitions.

About opportunity bias, I think it could also work to benefit people that go to less competitions. Like I mentioned before, Alexandre was much faster at his first competition, getting a 13 average, while Philipp and Drew got 18 and 32 averages, respectively, if he had attended a competition earlier in his cubing career, he would've had more competitions but no more top 1000 times. It would be interesting to see if there's a good way to take into account the number of competitions fairly, though.

Yeah, stats are fun. I believe some sort of weighting by the age of the official time might have value too. Ten appearances with nothing more recent than 5 years ago is probably less significant than 5 appearances in the past year.

 

[GenTheSnail]

This is my list of the top 10 3x3 speedcubers, based only on their best official 3x3 average.

10. Patrick Ponce
9. Philipp Weyer
8. Bill Wang
7. Kian Mansour
6. Mats Valk
5. Lucas Etter
4. Sebastian Weyer
3. Seung Hyuk Nahm (남승혁)
2. Max Park
1. Feliks Zemdegs

 

[UnspeakableRebel]

This is my list of the top 10 3x3 speedcubers, based only on their best official 3x3 average.

10. Patrick Ponce
9. Philipp Weyer
8. Bill Wang
7. Kian Mansour
6. Mats Valk
5. Lucas Etter
4. Sebastian Weyer
3. Seung Hyuk Nahm (남승혁)
2. Max Park
1. Feliks Zemdegs

GenTheThief, shouldn't Patrick be #1 if it's based on the best official 3x3 average?

 

[turtwig]

shouldn't Patrick be #1 if it's based on the best official 3x3 average?

Not sure if this is just some 'Feliks is #2 now' meme, but Patrick just got the WR single, not average.

 

[UnspeakableRebel]

Lol I think my brain just wasn't working when I posted that.