[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[JanW]

Thanks Isaac and TDM! I shall look into those algs. And yeah, I'm trying to get used to always doing keyhole when possible. That works really well.

 

[CubingGenius]

What is the fastest way to find the best EOline with colour neutrality? I can work out the edge orientation of all the axes quickly, but I can't work out which EOline to choose with the permutation of the line edges.

 

[CubingGenius]

I had an idea for colour neutral ZZ.

What I thought I could do is recognise the EO of all the three possible edge orientations (red/orange front, green/blue front and white/yellow front) and work out which has the smallest number of misoriented edges. Then I can look at the four possible EOlines and work out the best option.

Is this a good idea?

 

[GenTheSnail]

I had an idea for colour neutral ZZ.

What I thought I could do is recognise the EO of all the three possible edge orientations (red/orange front, green/blue front and white/yellow front) and work out which has the smallest number of misoriented edges. Then I can look at the four possible EOlines and work out the best option.

Is this a good idea?

So, first:
1. there are more than 3 edge orientations, and you described 6, not three.
2. there are more than 6 edge orientations, because you also have to do assign a top colour (24 positions).
3. there are more than 4 EOLines, I don't know how you came up with that figure.
4. there are 12 EOLines, or 24 if y2 is a different EOLine.

And second, your post was sort of confusing, I'll try to clarfiy.
Are you saying find the bad edges for all orientations, decide on the best orientations, and then find the best EOLine of those orientations?

If so, then, yes, that seems like the most logical approach for full colour neutrality with ZZ.

But, keep in mind that colour neutrality with ZZ is difficult or unnecessary. The most logical, I think is y neutrality, so only 8 edges can change, maximum.
The non E-slice edges on the E-slice, and the E-slice edges will change orientation, unless the E-slice edges are in the E-slice.

 

[TDM]

I had an idea for colour neutral ZZ.

What I thought I could do is recognise the EO of all the three possible edge orientations (red/orange front, green/blue front and white/yellow front) and work out which has the smallest number of misoriented edges. Then I can look at the four possible EOlines and work out the best option.

Is this a good idea?

I agree that choosing the best of three possible orientations could be good, but I don't think you'll realistically have time to choose from the four possible lines. Once EO is done there aren't many bad cases for line at all, so imo just one line per orientation should suffice.

I tried this a while ago but my F2L lookahead for white front was not good at all, so I gave up. But if your lookahead is good on other colours then give it a go!

So, first:
1. there are more than 3 edge orientations, and you described 6, not three.
2. there are more than 6 edge orientations, because you also have to do assign a top colour (24 positions).
3. there are more than 4 EOLines, I don't know how you came up with that figure.
4. there are 12 EOLines, or 24 if y2 is a different EOLine.

And second, your post was sort of confusing, I'll try to clarfiy.

I didn't find his post confusing at all. For the purposes of EO there are three orientations (red/orange front, blue/green front and white/yellow front) and, for the best orientation, 4 possible EOLines.

 

[GenTheSnail]

For the purposes of EO there are three orientations (red/orange front, blue/green front and white/yellow front)

For the purposes of EO there are not three orientations, there are six orientations:
red/orange front+white/yellow top
red/orange front+green/blue top

blue/green front+white/yellow
blue/green front+red/orange top

white/yellow front+red/orange top
white/yellow front+blue/green top

I still don't know how you are getting only 4 EOLines.

 

[TDM]

For the purposes of EO there are not three orientations, there are six orientations:
red/orange front+white/yellow top
red/orange front+green/blue top

blue/green front+white/yellow
blue/green front+red/orange top

white/yellow front+red/orange top
white/yellow front+blue/green top

I still don't know how you are getting only 4 EOLines.

z rotations have no effect on EO. Remember that oriented edges are defined as being solvable with <R, U, L, D, F2, B2>, which does not change after a z rotation.

 

[GenTheSnail]

Oh. yeah
Duh.
*Facepalm*

 

[CubingGenius]

I agree that choosing the best of three possible orientations could be good, but I don't think you'll realistically have time to choose from the four possible lines. Once EO is done there aren't many bad cases for line at all, so imo just one line per orientation should suffice.

I tried this a while ago but my F2L lookahead for white front was not good at all, so I gave up. But if your lookahead is good on other colours then give it a go!


I didn't find his post confusing at all. For the purposes of EO there are three orientations (red/orange front, blue/green front and white/yellow front) and, for the best orientation, 4 possible EOLines.

Thank you for the advice.

Do you think it would be a good idea once I decided on the front colour to look through the four EOlines and stop looking if I am happy with it? eg. I use red front, look at white on top, then look at blue on top and decide that is a good EOline and use that. The main reason I thought of looking at them all is because doing a z rotation will still have the same misoriented edges, they will just have changed their positions with the rotation.

For the purposes of EO there are not three orientations, there are six orientations:
red/orange front+white/yellow top
red/orange front+green/blue top

blue/green front+white/yellow
blue/green front+red/orange top

white/yellow front+red/orange top
white/yellow front+blue/green top

I still don't know how you are getting only 4 EOLines.

If you do a z rotation the number of misoriented edges stays the same.

So once you work out the front colour, there are four possible colours for the top which will all give different EOlines.

 

[TDM]

Thank you for the advice.

Do you think it would be a good idea once I decided on the front colour to look through the four EOlines and stop looking if I am happy with it? eg. I use red front, look at white on top, then look at blue on top and decide that is a good EOline and use that. The main reason I thought of looking at them all is because doing a z rotation will still have the same misoriented edges, they will just have changed their positions with the rotation.

If you have enough inspection time then maybe, but it may be a better use of your time to instead identify a starting point for your F2L so you can track the pieces while solving EOLine. That will reduce the pause before you start solving your F2L.

 

[ChrisCross]

I am currently a CFOP solver averaging at about 21-22 seconds. I have been interested in ZZ for a little while since it seems to appeal to the things I have trouble with like cube rotations. I am now seriously considering switching and was wondering if you had any pointers, tips or good tutorials.

 

[GenTheSnail]

@ChrisCross , Phill Yu's (asmallkitten) ZZ youtube tutorial is a really good starting point, it's just very long.

Also, ask questions, why am I switching to ZZ? Is it because it doesn't have rotations? Or because CFOP is overrated? Or because it's just really fun to say?
Also be sure to note the things that CFOP has that is better than ZZ.
When I started with ZZ I couldn't understand why ZZ wasn't dominating 3x3: it makes good use of inspection and every step is easier and faster than CFOP's, except of course EOLine/Cross.
But, the thing is, there are more ingame decisions with ZZF2L than with CFOP F2L.
Do I blockbuild these three pieces or cross+pair insert them, which three pieces? Do I take a couple more moves and preserve this beautiful block, and if so, how?
CFOP is just: pair+insert, but which pair to insert?
These decisions, I think, counteract ZZF2L's reduced move set, speed, and (fluidity?).

Also, because of the LL cross, 1LLL is very possible. You might want to look into some methods for doing that (ZZ wiki page has a large section on that), but COLL/EPLL or OCLL/PLL are typically good enough.

Hope that you chose to switch to ZZ.

 

[ChrisCross]

Thanks, that was very helpful!

 

[ChrisCross]

I have now watched Phil Yu's videos on edge orientation and have been practicing it, but it is not coming easily. I find it very difficult to tell whether or not edges are good or bad that aren't white or yellow(since I am not color neutral) and really can't seem to orient all the edges with out losing track of all the pieces. Is this normal? What should I be doing differently, and please give me some tips.

 

[TDM]

I have now watched Phil Yu's videos on edge orientation and have been practicing it, but it is not coming easily. I find it very difficult to tell whether or not edges are good or bad that aren't white or yellow(since I am not color neutral) and really can't seem to orient all the edges with out losing track of all the pieces. Is this normal? What should I be doing differently, and please give me some tips.

I found Conrad Rider's text tutorial best when I was learning to recognise bad edges. Have you tried looking at that?

 

[GenTheSnail]

and really can't seem to orient all the edges with out losing track of all the pieces. Is this normal? What should I be doing differently, and please give me some tips.

So, when I started ZZ, I would take forever to find my edges, but when I would, I would place my finger on the bad edge. Then I could see the "shape" of the bad edges based on the position of my fingers, without having to remember where they are.

I have now watched Phil Yu's videos on edge orientation and have been practicing it, but it is not coming easily. I find it very difficult to tell whether or not edges are good or bad that aren't white or yellow

Take your time. It will come with practice. Sometimes, I'll still just mentally solve the edge to see whether or not it is good or bad. Do you understand the rules that asmallkitten uses to determine the state of edges?
Also, I like to think of green/blue white/yellow red/orange (I solve blue front, yellow top) as the same colour. This way, I think it sort of reduces the number of cases.

I found Conrad Rider's text tutorial best when I was learning to recognise bad edges

I didn't use this when I learned ZZ, but if the videos don't work, then maybe this will.

 

[ChrisCross]

Thanks this has been very helpful.

 

[CubingGenius]

If you have enough inspection time then maybe, but it may be a better use of your time to instead identify a starting point for your F2L so you can track the pieces while solving EOLine. That will reduce the pause before you start solving your F2L.

Sorry for the late reply. Thank you for the advice.

Just wondering, when I try to track F2L pieces do I just pick some and work out where they go after the EOline? I think that would be quite useful to learn especially for the cross edges.

Do you have any tips for ZZF2L in general? I find that stage very hard to execute and tend to pause a lot because I don't know what to do.

Thank you for all the help you have given me! I have been finding your advice very useful.

 

[TDM]

Sorry for the late reply. Thank you for the advice.

Just wondering, when I try to track F2L pieces do I just pick some and work out where they go after the EOline? I think that would be quite useful to learn especially for the cross edges.

Do you have any tips for ZZF2L in general? I find that stage very hard to execute and tend to pause a lot because I don't know what to do.

Thank you for all the help you have given me! I have been finding your advice very useful.

Yeah, that's the idea. Since most of the time you'll be starting F2L by making a 2x2 block in either L or R, if you can track the three pieces you need to form a block then that's perfect. If not then at least one of either DL or DR will be a good start.

Unfortunately I'm not very good at ZZF2L, so I'm not the best person to ask. Maybe someone else will be able to help you with that. One thing I will say though is to slow down and look ahead. Even if you're not turning as fast, if you don't pause then you'll find that you might even be faster. And if you're slower at first, it shouldn't take much practise with slow turning before you get back down to below your normal speed.

 

[GenTheSnail]

Just wondering, when I try to track F2L pieces do I just pick some and work out where they go after the EOline? I think that would be quite useful to learn especially for the cross edges.

There are no such things as "cross" edges in ZZ. You need to think of all 6 f2l edges as the same when executing.
Because ZZ has a fixed solving position, with time, when you see a piece, you will know where it goes. I don't think it would be something you learn as much a just practice.

Unfortunately I'm not very good at ZZF2L [coughcoughofficial12secondaveragecoughcough], so I'm not the best person to ask. Maybe someone else will be able to help you with that.

Well, i'm not that fast either (sub-18.5), but my F2L, I feel, is my strongest point, which normally takes around 8-11 seconds (Yes, my LL is awful).

Do you have any tips for ZZF2L in general? I find that stage very hard to execute and tend to pause a lot because I don't know what to do.

Don't be partial to pairs over blocks or vice versa. Do what you see first, but as TDM said, turn slowly and try to use lookahead when possible. When there aren't any pauses, you can very slowly increase your tps, but try to keep those pauses minimal and keep using lookahead.

Something I sometimes struggle with is when I'm planing out EOLine, and I will see a nice, pre-made block. Unless you can see a very clear, simple way of preserving that block, completely ignore the block. If I don't, then my EOLine will get really long and inefficient and the solve will be much slower even if my f2l got a nice start.