Calode
Regular
I believe in combining f2l and LL to get efficient times. I'm learning WV and COLL. Later, I'll learn cls and ble along with easy zblls. Less looking at each algs as a variation, rather, a tool.
[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion
- Thread starter koreancuber
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Calode
Regular
So I've just broken sub 20 recently. I'm still about 19-20 global avg but am capable of sub 20, 19, and 18 ao12s. And I've noticed a TON of inconsistency though.
I'm sorta new to lookahead. Sometimes I'm doing it cause it's really easy, sometimes it's not so easy.
In my current running session, my largest 2 second demographic is 16-18 which is really surprising. I'd expect it to be 18-20. I've been considering myself sub 18-20 but with mistakes.
Has anyone else noticed any big inconsistency in their ZZ times? I don't know if this is a ZZ thing cause the method can be really lucky, or just a lookahead thing.
I'm sorta new to lookahead. Sometimes I'm doing it cause it's really easy, sometimes it's not so easy.
In my current running session, my largest 2 second demographic is 16-18 which is really surprising. I'd expect it to be 18-20. I've been considering myself sub 18-20 but with mistakes.
Has anyone else noticed any big inconsistency in their ZZ times? I don't know if this is a ZZ thing cause the method can be really lucky, or just a lookahead thing.
maps600
Regular
Being a CFOP user, I can say that I don't think it is the method. I have the same inconsistency issues. Just keep practicing lookahead and turn slowly if you feel like you're going to pause. You'll be able to sub 20 avg100 easily.
ChickenWrap
Veteran
I have always solved ZZ with Yellow on top and blue on front. If I have the "bad" cases (6 or 8 bad edges), and I were to turn the cube so I have orange/red in front, is there a relationship between both orientations and the number of bad edges?
TDM
Legend
You can look at the E layer edges in the U/D layers, and the U/D edges in the E layer.
For the E layer edges in U/D, some will have red/orange facing U/D, and others will have blue/green facing U/D. If they have red/orange, then they'll be oriented with red/orange on front, and similarly if they have blue/green facing U/D then they'll be oriented with blue/green on front.
For the white/yellow edges in the E layer, look at where the white/yellow stickers are. If they're on the blue/green sides, they'll be oriented with blue/green on front. And if they are on the red/orange sides, then they'll be oriented with red/orange on front.
(I've tried and failed to explain this several times; sorry if you can't understand this, but I tried my best
Also can I ask how lucky was your PB?)
ChickenWrap
Veteran
You can look at the E layer edges in the U/D layers, and the U/D edges in the E layer.
For the E layer edges in U/D, some will have red/orange facing U/D, and others will have blue/green facing U/D. If they have red/orange, then they'll be oriented with red/orange on front, and similarly if they have blue/green facing U/D then they'll be oriented with blue/green on front.
For the white/yellow edges in the E layer, look at where the white/yellow stickers are. If they're on the blue/green sides, they'll be oriented with blue/green on front. And if they are on the red/orange sides, then they'll be oriented with red/orange on front.
(I've tried and failed to explain this several times; sorry if you can't understand this, but I tried my best
Thanks! I understand what you are saying. I guess I should rephrase my question though:
If I have a bad EO case, is there any way to change orientation that will ALWAYS make it better?
And regarding that single, it was the luckiest day of my life. After EOL, the entire left block was solved with an L2 and the right block was easy as well and I had a LL skip. I felt so lucky that day that I bought my first lottery ticket and surprisingly won $200 which I spent on new cubes immediately
TDM
Legend
No, because you could get superflip (as an extreme example), where every side has the same bad EO case, so no rotating would help.Thanks! I understand what you are saying. I guess I should rephrase my question though:
If I have a bad EO case, is there any way to change orientation that will ALWAYS make it better?
And regarding that single, it was the luckiest day of my life. After EOL, the entire left block was solved with an L2 and the right block was easy as well and I had a LL skip. I felt so lucky that day that I bought my first lottery ticket and surprisingly won $200 which I spent on new cubes immediately
Wow, that's very lucky... I wish that could happen to me
I have to rely on turning as fast as possible and somehow looking ahead (which never happens) to get PBs 
Petro Leum
Veteran
i definitely like phasing + ZZLL best, but i don't know all the cases yet.
usually i use COLL, the shortest WV cases, some ZBLLs/mirrored COLLs or just Sune/PLL for the Sune cases.
lorki3
Veteran
I'm getting rather close to sub-20 OH.
I'd love to be sub-20 in 3 weeks so I can get official ZZ solves at my next comp. :3
http://gyazo.com/854f798bebb3fff740d6d4cdb2e2dadd
EDIT:
I was fiddling around with my cube and I found this cool way of solving EO when you have 4 bad edges.
Perform L u' L' on a solved cube.
Now you have four bad edges on the L face. Solve it using the inverse of that alg I just gave.
This is very good for OH.
I'd love to be sub-20 in 3 weeks so I can get official ZZ solves at my next comp. :3
http://gyazo.com/854f798bebb3fff740d6d4cdb2e2dadd
EDIT:
I was fiddling around with my cube and I found this cool way of solving EO when you have 4 bad edges.
Perform L u' L' on a solved cube.
Now you have four bad edges on the L face. Solve it using the inverse of that alg I just gave.
This is very good for OH.
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mDiPalma
Veteran
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- Jul 12, 2011
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For those interested in ZZ-d:
Here is a way to insert the last pair and solve 2GLL in 16.74 moves [RU] (unweighted average, not counting AUFs, or cancellations), granted the CP is solved already. There are less than 30 "algs". You know most of them already.
It's pretty self-explanatory, but here's the breakdown:
scramble in your solution orientation: B2 D' R2 D2 U' R2 D' F2 U2 F2 L2 R U L U' F' D F D L' U2
B R B' R D // eoline, as usual (5)
U2 R L2 U L U' L U L' // complete one 3x2x1, I prefer left to force the remainder of the solve to be [RU] in my preferred orientation (9)
U' R' D R' U' R D' // zz-porky, or some other variant to solve the permutation of the corners (7)
U2 R2 U2 R' U2 R U' R' U' R' // create a block on the other side of the cube and the final pair (10)
R U2 R' // caso 8 of the algorithms provided (3)
y' d R' U2 R U R' U R // sune 2GLL (8)
=42 htm, 39 htm with cancellations
This solve is somewhat lucky, but getting solves like this is not statistically uncommon at all. There is a 1/6 chance of a 7-move LL (sune/antisune), and a 5/9 chance that your reduction to a sune-LL will be only 3 moves. That means that once you create the last pair in the U-layer, it should only take 10 moves [RU] to completely solve the cube (not counting AUFs or cancellations) around 10% of the time.
You can use any method to solve the CP. I recommend ZZ-Porky v1 because it is the most versatile and compatible with speedsolving. The recognition is second-nature, and there are basically no algs to learn.
Please take a moment to look into this 2GLL alternative. If you have any questions/want more examples, let me know and provide me with scrambles.
Here is a way to insert the last pair and solve 2GLL in 16.74 moves [RU] (unweighted average, not counting AUFs, or cancellations), granted the CP is solved already. There are less than 30 "algs". You know most of them already.
It's pretty self-explanatory, but here's the breakdown:
scramble in your solution orientation: B2 D' R2 D2 U' R2 D' F2 U2 F2 L2 R U L U' F' D F D L' U2
B R B' R D // eoline, as usual (5)
U2 R L2 U L U' L U L' // complete one 3x2x1, I prefer left to force the remainder of the solve to be [RU] in my preferred orientation (9)
U' R' D R' U' R D' // zz-porky, or some other variant to solve the permutation of the corners (7)
U2 R2 U2 R' U2 R U' R' U' R' // create a block on the other side of the cube and the final pair (10)
R U2 R' // caso 8 of the algorithms provided (3)
y' d R' U2 R U R' U R // sune 2GLL (8)
=42 htm, 39 htm with cancellations
This solve is somewhat lucky, but getting solves like this is not statistically uncommon at all. There is a 1/6 chance of a 7-move LL (sune/antisune), and a 5/9 chance that your reduction to a sune-LL will be only 3 moves. That means that once you create the last pair in the U-layer, it should only take 10 moves [RU] to completely solve the cube (not counting AUFs or cancellations) around 10% of the time.
You can use any method to solve the CP. I recommend ZZ-Porky v1 because it is the most versatile and compatible with speedsolving. The recognition is second-nature, and there are basically no algs to learn.
Please take a moment to look into this 2GLL alternative. If you have any questions/want more examples, let me know and provide me with scrambles.
ChickenWrap
Veteran
Hi, I am interested in this....where can I find information on ZZ-Porky??
mDiPalma
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ZZ-Porky v1
ZZ-Porky v2
In my opinion, v1 is better than v2 for speedsolving, but v2 is more true to the idea of ZZ-d (and is more efficient). I've probably done more solves with these variants than Porkynator himself
.If he gives me permission, I'll make a video describing advanced applications of ZZ-Porky v1 that you would otherwise only discover after hundreds/thousands of solves.
porkynator
Veteran
Of course you can!ZZ-Porky v1
ZZ-Porky v2
In my opinion, v1 is better than v2 for speedsolving, but v2 is more true to the idea of ZZ-d (and is more efficient). I've probably done more solves with these variants than Porkynator himself
If he gives me permission, I'll make a video describing advanced applications of ZZ-Porky v1 that you would otherwise only discover after hundreds/thousands of solves.
Lazy Einstein
Alg Ninja
ZZ-Porky v1
ZZ-Porky v2
In my opinion, v1 is better than v2 for speedsolving, but v2 is more true to the idea of ZZ-d (and is more efficient). I've probably done more solves with these variants than Porkynator himself
If he gives me permission, I'll make a video describing advanced applications of ZZ-Porky v1 that you would otherwise only discover after hundreds/thousands of solves.
Of course you can!
WIN! Please do. I just switched to ZZ for OH/2H. I am learning full COLL for COLL/EPLL which I hope to turn into ZBLL. However, it seems there are so many variants. Anyone who can make good guide on the variants should. It would be greatly appreciated and cut down the research time of all of them by a lot.
pinser
Regular
The cases on the website aren't working. Please repost them here.
Also, you listed a con as "0% chance for LLskip", but since CP is already done, shouldn't recognizing a LLskip be pretty easy?
E: How about WV and ZZ-d? If CP is done does that mean onnly the RU WV cases will happen?
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mDiPalma
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Of course you can!
Thx! I'll go ahead then!
The only OH advantage to COLL/EPLL is that you're last alg set is completely [RU]. Using a ZZ-d approach, while making F2L slightly more difficult, reduces the entire LL stage to [RU], which is a vast improvement over traditional OCLL/PLL and even COLL/EPLL in my opinion.
For 2H, ZZ is not the fastest method in general. But I think it's the most fun.
The cases, as I posted them, certainly work (unless I made an error in just the one you are testing)! Make sure you are starting with the pair in the front right, then applying the appropriate AUF before the alg! If you post a scramble, I will demonstrate how to apply these algs. Admittedly, it's quite confusing the way I structured it.
True, but the point is that you're shooting to a unsolved CO state intentionally. Therefore a true "LL skip" is impossible if you strictly follow this 2GLL alternative. But sure, for the R U' R' and R U2 R' cube solutions, I would definitely expect every speedcuber to recognize the potential skip, and not bother with this 2gen-Sune-LL nonsense.
No sir! WV is inherently a Corner-Orienting substep. Every WV case can be completed with only [RU] moves; it is only a convenience to use [RUL] or [RUF] in WV algs! Using ZZ-d will have no effect on the quantity of WV cases you have to worry about, but it WILL reduce the PLL possibilities from all 21 PLLs to just the 4 EPLLs.
If it helps to think about, the variant I posted is essentially a set of short/fast WV algs that lead to a SUNE CO instead of a SOLVED CO.
Good luck! And let me know if you have any more questions!
lorki3
Veteran
I will look into your ZZ-d approach for OH, MDiPalma.
I bet it has a lot of potential. :3
I bet it has a lot of potential. :3
lorki3
Veteran
I was wondering, is it usually better to solve one block and then the block on the other side, or is it also okay to solve and F/B block and then the other one?
Petro Leum
Veteran
effiency wise, its best to be flexible and able to go back and forth through both blocks
for onehanded, it's a different story; it's usually better to stay in one rotation as long as possible, even if it's just a z/z'.
Also, if the right and left block take roughly equal as many moves, it would be wise to solve the one with the worse move set first (for example, my [L,U] is much worse than my [R,U], so i would prefer [L,U] first), because the first block usually takes more moves than the second one, and you want as many of the moves you have to make on your preferred move-set.
i hope that was understandable, i'm very tired
