Random Cubing Discussion

G2013 · Jul 21, 2014

Who is the person that knows most amount of algorithms?
I've heard of people that are full ZBLL, and lots of things like that, but who haves the WR of most algorithms memorized?

IRNjuggle28 · Jul 22, 2014

goodatthis said:
From my understanding, in other ATM metrics, if you do M' R2, that would be considered one move. I'm not completely sure, since the wiki page on ATM is fairly short.

Renslay said:
Indeed. Turning anything on the x axis (for example) counts as 1 move. So M' R L2 R L' M' R L2 is just one move. The second move comes when you change the axis.
So the center-turning sequence U R L U2 R' L' U R L U2 R' L' is actually 8 moves in ATM, as shown here: (U) (R L) (U2) (R' L') (U) (R L) (U2) (R' L').

Wow, very interesting. Hadn't heard of those. Kieran, if you're interested enough, you should start a challenge thread for ATM FMC.

G2013 said:
Who is the person that knows most amount of algorithms?
I've heard of people that are full ZBLL, and lots of things like that, but who haves the WR of most algorithms memorized?

A few people learned full ZBLL, but they learned it for FMC, not for speedsolving. You also have to define "algorithm" more clearly in order to find out who knows the most.

Out of active speedsolvers, the answer would be Jabari Nuruddin, aka BindeDSA. He knows full 2GLL, and about 2/3 of full ZBLL. I'm sure he also knows a fair number of 2x2 algorithms.

uberCuber · Jul 22, 2014

IRNjuggle28 said:
A few people learned full ZBLL, but they learned it for FMC, not for speedsolving. You also have to define "algorithm" more clearly in order to find out who knows the most.

Out of active speedsolvers, the answer would be Jabari Nuruddin, aka BindeDSA. He knows full 2GLL, and about 2/3 of full ZBLL. I'm sure he also knows a fair number of 2x2 algorithms.

I very strongly doubt that bindedsa knows more algorithms than any other speedsolvers right now. Btw 2GLL is a subset of ZBLL, so it is redundant to mention it alongside "2/3 of full ZBLL".

IRNjuggle28 · Jul 22, 2014

uberCuber said:
I very strongly doubt that bindedsa knows more algorithms than any other speedsolvers right now. Btw 2GLL is a subset of ZBLL, so it is redundant to mention it alongside "2/3 of full ZBLL".

I was trying to specify what parts of ZBLL he knew. Some people learn ZBLL by the OCLL subsets. Bindedsa learned the cases with corners permuted. He could know that much ZBLL and not know full 2GLL, so I don't see it as redundant.

Who knows more algs than him? If you spit out a few names, I'm happy to admit that I was incorrect. However, I assumed that if somebody knew more, we would know their names. Anybody with enough dedication to cubing to learn that much seems unlikely to be unknown to the community.

"algorithm" needs a more specific definition. By some definitions, the answer would be the bigBLD solvers who use 3 cycles. It's thousands of cases, and if the person asking the question considers each case a different alg, then that's their answer.

JackJ · Jul 22, 2014

IRNjuggle28 said:
Who knows more algs than him?

I'm sure Chris Tran did at one point.

goodatthis · Jul 22, 2014

G2013 said:
Who is the person that knows most amount of algorithms?
I've heard of people that are full ZBLL, and lots of things like that, but who haves the WR of most algorithms memorized?

In a thread (too lazy to link it right now, just seach how many algs in the search box) Rowe Hessler said probably about 1000. He said it was just an estimate, and I'm also not sure if he was joking or not.

IRNjuggle28 said:
Wow, very interesting. Hadn't heard of those. Kieran, if you're interested enough, you should start a challenge thread for ATM FMC.

Maybe, but I think I should run it by the FMCers first, see what they think.

uberCuber · Jul 22, 2014

IRNjuggle28 said:
Who knows more algs than him? If you spit out a few names, I'm happy to admit that I was incorrect. However, I assumed that if somebody knew more, we would know their names. Anybody with enough dedication to cubing to learn that much seems unlikely to be unknown to the community.

Well, I'd need to know how many algs he knows himself. I'm not even sure he knows more than me at this point. Either way though, Kirjava learned full OLLCP (300+ algs) at some point, and he knows absurd amounts of other stuff. Justin Harder similarly. Even consider Chris Olson, who knows a couple hundred algs just for 2x2 on top of whatever he knows for 3x3 and stuff. AFAIK RobYau knows decent chunks of both OLLCP and ZBLL. I'm sure there are others I should be thinking of as well.

But yes, this is definitely a problem with counting this stuff:

"algorithm" needs a more specific definition. By some definitions, the answer would be the bigBLD solvers who use 3 cycles. It's thousands of cases, and if the person asking the question considers each case a different alg, then that's their answer.

IRNjuggle28 · Jul 22, 2014

uberCuber said:
Well, I'd need to know how many algs he knows himself. I'm not even sure he knows more than me at this point. Either way though, Kirjava learned full OLLCP (300+ algs) at some point, and he knows absurd amounts of other stuff. Justin Harder similarly. Even consider Chris Olson, who knows a couple hundred algs just for 2x2 on top of whatever he knows for 3x3 and stuff. AFAIK RobYau knows decent chunks of both OLLCP and ZBLL. I'm sure there are others I should be thinking of as well.

Fair enough. It's also likely that Kir knows a ton of algs because he knows a ton of methods. Roux, CFOP, and Petrus only overlap a certain amount, and I'm pretty sure Kir knows all the intuitive F2L/block algs for all the methods, of which there are hundreds. (depending on the definition of "alg," of course) Why would he even learn full OLLCP? He uses Roux. I guess he must have used it to try to make CLL and EO a single step, because there's barely a point otherwise.

guysensei1 · Jul 23, 2014

guysensei1 said:
Which 1LLL case(s) takes the most moves optimally?

I found one more.
It's E perm + pure 4 flipped edges. Takes (at least) 16 moves. I have cubeexplorer running right now and it's gotten up to 16.

Would anyone be so kind as to list all the 16 move (if that's even the highest optimal movecount for 1LLL) 1LLL cases?

EDIT: got the optimal alg.
U2 F R D2 F' R2 U B' R2 B U' R2 F D2 R' F' 16 HTM.

Renslay · Jul 23, 2014

guysensei1 said:
I found one more.
It's E perm + pure 4 flipped edges. Takes (at least) 16 moves. I have cubeexplorer running right now and it's gotten up to 16.

Would anyone be so kind as to list all the 16 move (if that's even the highest optimal movecount for 1LLL) 1LLL cases?

EDIT: got the optimal alg.
U2 F R D2 F' R2 U B' R2 B U' R2 F D2 R' F' 16 HTM.

But without AUF, it is only 15...
(I think the length of the PLLs is usually measured without AUF, am I correct?)

PJKCuber · Jul 23, 2014

Weird, but I kind hate MMAP because he has so many puzzles even though he's slower than me. I only have 4

G2013 · Jul 23, 2014

Replying to all who replied me:
I define "algorithm" as a group of predefined moves that someone memorize sometimes with a name (like the PLLs) and execute to complete the substep that that group of moves belong to.
I know someone that knows 800-900.
And I teached myself like 400 algorithms.

Stefan · Jul 23, 2014

How to do a single quarter turn as a commutator:

[U, remove U-layer pieces from cube]
Credit to I think TMOY or Bruce for this idea (was how to do a single corner twist as a commutator, iirc).

Now I'm thinking whether it might be possible without taking pieces out of the cube, maybe with eighth turns and similar to how you can do U2 as [U, [L R:d2]]. Or with some other creative ways?

antoineccantin · Jul 23, 2014

G2013 said:
Replying to all who replied me:
I define "algorithm" as a group of predefined moves that someone memorize sometimes with a name (like the PLLs) and execute to complete the substep that that group of moves belong to.
I know someone that knows 800-900.
And I teached myself like 400 algorithms.

So that includes BLD commutators then? I suppose Roman must know many thousands of algorithms, considering how many different types of pieces he solves on 10BLD.

IRNjuggle28 · Jul 24, 2014

IRNjuggle28 said:
this

antoineccantin said:
So that includes BLD commutators then? I suppose Roman must know many thousands of algorithms, considering how many different types of pieces he solves on 10BLD.

Well, I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts, which I quoted, but I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that what's used on 10BLD is different enough to count as a different algorithm. If Roman had a 100x100x100 cube, he would know how to do 3 cycles there too using the exact same concepts he would on a smaller cube. But would you say that he knows millions and millions of algorithms? After 4x4, the corner center piece algorithms are all the same. After 5x5, the plus center algorithms are all the same. After 6x6, the oblique algorithms are all the same. I don't think 10BLD really requires more algorithms than 6 or 7.

tseitsei · Jul 24, 2014

antoineccantin said:
So that includes BLD commutators then? I suppose Roman must know many thousands of algorithms, considering how many different types of pieces he solves on 10BLD.

I would say that this definition actually DOESN'T include BLD commutators as algorithms...

Because I would say I learned commutators the same way as F2L: By understanding how the cube works and coming up with a solution for each case on my own.

Well obviously I know by now both BLD comms and F2L by muscle memory just like PLLs but I didn't initially learn them as algorithms as I did with PLLs and OLLs.

Also I could easily come up with a different way to solve any BLD 3-cycle or F2L pair on the spot but I couldn't do that for OLLs and PLLs that easily because OLL/PLL are just move sequences I have learned (algorithms) and don't actually know how they work. And F2L and comms are intuitive ways for me to solve the cube by actually UNDERSTANDING what I'm doing (intuitive --> not algorithms)

uberCuber · Jul 24, 2014

If someone were to learn BH algorithmically rather than intuitively (e.g. aronpm), then it would seem to fit his definition, being predefined moves that someone memorized

tseitsei · Jul 24, 2014

uberCuber said:
If someone were to learn BH algorithmically rather than intuitively (e.g. aronpm), then it would seem to fit his definition, being predefined moves that someone memorized

Yeah that's true. I just thought nobody/very few people learn it that way.
Especially for big cubes because you would need to learn so many algs for 5BLD

Don't know the exact numbers but something like >400 algs per piece type so corners, midges, wings, x-centers, +-centers= 5*400= over 2000 algorithms for 5BLD...
Seems like a ridiculous amount of work, because just by learning how comms work you could solve all those cases intuitively. And I don't think ANYONE has ever learned bigBLD this way

That would be just stupid...

guysensei1 · Jul 25, 2014

Am I the only one who first learnt the U perms with the solved edge facing me?

TDM · Jul 25, 2014

guysensei1 said:
Am I the only one who first learnt the U perms with the solved edge facing me?

I thought I was the only one who didn't...

Random Cubing Discussion

Veteran

Veteran

Legend

Veteran

Veteran

Veteran

Legend

Veteran

Legend

Legend

Veteran

Veteran

Legend

Legend

Veteran

Veteran

Legend

Veteran

Legend

Legend

Similar threads