ZZ Cubers

RonM said:
@GenTheThief I do the finger thing too for remembering pieces but some times they are just placed really awkardly and my cube destabilizes; it gets messy. How long do you think you used your fingers to help you? I've been trying to break the need for it by just planning the first four in my head then putting my fingers on whatever bad edges remain.
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[time date backround] I switched to zz in something like late feburary of 2016. After my second competition in early may, I was able to transition out of cross f2l, and into full ZZ block builing f2l. I think it was sometime in the summer, as I was breaking into 18.5-19, was when I stopped doing the finger thing since i realized it was a bad idea, and would look stupid in competition.
I think if you have a solid grasp of EO, you should stop with the finger thing as soon as you feel comfortable.

Nowadays, I've encountered most and probably all variations of EO that I instantly have a plan, so no need for fingers.
 
GenTheThief said:
[time date backround] I switched to zz in something like late feburary of 2016. After my second competition in early may, I was able to transition out of cross f2l, and into full ZZ block builing f2l. I think it was sometime in the summer, as I was breaking into 18.5-19, was when I stopped doing the finger thing since i realized it was a bad idea, and would look stupid in competition.
I think if you have a solid grasp of EO, you should stop with the finger thing as soon as you feel comfortable.

Nowadays, I've encountered most and probably all variations of EO that I instantly have a plan, so no need for fingers.
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I relate to that bit about feeling/looking stupid doing the finger thing, I think that's part of the reason why I was in such a hurry to get EOLine down; the only cube I have that I can actually place my fingers on awkwardly placed edges is my Gans UM, with my Valk 3 the cube destabilizes and the odds of dropping it skyrocket, that and it's distracting to have to focus on maintaining the cube. And man, I can't wait until I'm that comfortable with EO.

@JTcuber Thank you man! My practice time is pretty limited as a full-grown adult with full-grown adult responsibilities, so I try to make every "deliberate" practice session as intense as I can to get the most out of it, but I bounce between training too much at one time and overwhelming myself or training too little at once and not challenging myself. I kind of goofed in my last post, I actually do know full 2LLL and a handful of COLL H, T and Pi cases that I simply refuse to use in a speed solve until I'm not hesitating on all the PLLs' recognition and/or execution (looking at you N & R perms and Gd perm).

I've been curious about something: Do you guys find ZZ is harder to grow consistent with than CFOP? I remember with CFOP with my standard deviations was ALWAYS really low, typically within 2-3 seconds, but with ZZ it's typically around 4-6 seconds. I think it's due to the variation in possible bad edges for EO and how difficult EOLine/EO+Line is to accomplish, but your guys' more experienced input would be appreciated. :)
 
RonM said:
@JTcuber Thank you man! My practice time is pretty limited as a full-grown adult with full-grown adult responsibilities, so I try to make every "deliberate" practice session as intense as I can to get the most out of it, but I bounce between training too much at one time and overwhelming myself or training too little at once and not challenging myself. I kind of goofed in my last post, I actually do know full 2LLL and a handful of COLL H, T and Pi cases that I simply refuse to use in a speed solve until I'm not hesitating on all the PLLs' recognition and/or execution (looking at you N & R perms and Gd perm).

I've been curious about something: Do you guys find ZZ is harder to grow consistent with than CFOP? I remember with CFOP with my standard deviations was ALWAYS really low, typically within 2-3 seconds, but with ZZ it's typically around 4-6 seconds. I think it's due to the variation in possible bad edges for EO and how difficult EOLine/EO+Line is to accomplish, but your guys' more experienced input would be appreciated. :)
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That's good that you know 2LLL, the more you put it into practice, the more comfortable it'll be. Same with EOline. And as for practice, ZZ is luckily one of the easiest methods to practice with, because you don't really need fancy drills, just sitting down and solving is some of the best stuff you can do.

As for the consistency, I think that's sort of inherent with the ZZ method. When you deal with methods that reduce more movesets and cases, you're bound to get more skips, which skyrockets your standard deviation. Like my pb single is 6.9, my ao5 is 9.8, and my average of 1000 is low 12s, and my average is one of the more consistent ZZ averages I've seen. I think that standard deviation depends a lot on your method. Normal 2LLL and ZBLL will typically yield more consistent results than COLL or ZZ-CT, because the probability of skipping is just so much higher. EOline may have something to do with it, but I tend to finish it in 1-2 seconds consistently, but consistency in EOline just comes from gaining a better intuition about EO cases and being able to track your line pieces, or plan the whole thing out.
 
OCLL (7 cases) orients the corners.
COLL (28 cases, not counting Sune/AntiSune) orients and places the corners at their relative correct place.

OCLL + PLL is fine to begin with.
 
rmblr said:
I've been using OCLL + PLL as recommended by Conrad's beginner tutorial. Is that a good choice for now (considering the fact that as a cubing noob, I don't have a past library of algs to lean on)?
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OCLL and PLL are definitely a great start toward getting faster. When I started out with ZZ, I used OCLL and PLL until I averaged about 20 seconds, then I started learning COLL algs to help me with getting sub-20. As long as the alg set works for you, I wouldn't really advise switching until you feel that knowing less algs is holding you back from significant improvement. When you start out, it's much more important to plan out more efficient EOlines, and to focus on learning good blockbuilding habits. LL should be the last thing you should work to improve, and only start learning really advanced stuff after you get good with EOline and your F2L.
 
Thanks @Pyjam and @JTcuber!

I'm definitely sticking with OCLL/PLL for now. I'm struggling most with the blockbuilding in F2L, the last pairs often get me if they are in a "strange" arrangement.

I made this reference sheet for ZZ OCLL/PLL, it is sort of a frankenstein of full OLL/PLL sheets I've found on the forum.

ZdLyFiQ.png

Can you check it out and tell me what you think about my alg choices? It seems that the only turning L, R, U kind of goes out the window for some of them, or are there better algs more suited for ZZ?
 
26. This is a weird Anti-Sune. Just do: U' R U2' R' U' R U' R'
22. All U2 are in fact U2'
21. Last U2 is U2'
23. It starts with R2'
25. I do: (F' r U R' U' r' F R) or (U' F R' F' r U R U' r')

Ua/Ub. Switch the algs or start with U2. ;)

For the last pair, you may learn a couple of algs.
See: http://algdb.net/Set/F2L
 
rmblr said:
It seems that the only turning L, R, U kind of goes out the window for some of them, or are there better algs more suited for ZZ?
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The move restrictions are just to maintain edge orientation throughout F2L, no need to worry about that once you've reached the last layer.

ZZ will always give you one of the seven OCLLs (or an OLL skip). You pre-oriented all edges and made no moves that would misorient any, so your edges for the last layer will already be oriented.

COLL is handy for ZZ because you have fewer OLLs combinations that can turn up per above. By learning ~6 algs per OCLL case you can permute the corners at the same time as orienting them, thus leaving you with just a handful of EPLL cases for the last step (plus 12x greater chance of a PLL skip). Recognition is easy for those and they're among the fastest PLLs (EPLL being Z, H, and U).
 
Last edited:
@Pyjam Woot, updated the sheet.

Thanks for the f2l alg list. How do I modify the algs in that list for the front-left pair? Sometimes I'll put in the front-right pair first because I see it first/faster.
 
rmblr said:
Thanks @Pyjam and @JTcuber!

I'm definitely sticking with OCLL/PLL for now. I'm struggling most with the blockbuilding in F2L, the last pairs often get me if they are in a "strange" arrangement.

I made this reference sheet for ZZ OCLL/PLL, it is sort of a frankenstein of full OLL/PLL sheets I've found on the forum.

ZdLyFiQ.png

Can you check it out and tell me what you think about my alg choices? It seems that the only turning L, R, U kind of goes out the window for some of them, or are there better algs more suited for ZZ?
Click to expand...
Those aren't all that great algs. I'd recommend the algs here: https://www.cubeskills.com/uploads/pdf/tutorials/4-look-last-layer.pdf
Those are the best algs you can find. Once you know all of these, I would start working on 1 look PLL, so you can do last layer in 2 steps rather than 3. After that, it's really up to you, but I recommend eventually learning COLL, which leads to an easy transition to 2GLL and eventually full ZBLL.
 
UnknownCuber said:
Should I learn WV for zzf2l? Some OLLs are kinda uncomfortable for me to execute.
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If you don't mind learning 25 algs, some of which aren't very nice either, then sure. (There are 27 WV cases, but R U' R' and R U2 R' should be pretty obvious, so that leaves 25.) Honestly though, maybe you should try learning alternative OLL algs instead of whatever you're using now.
 
xyzzy said:
If you don't mind learning 25 algs, some of which aren't very nice either, then sure. (There are 27 WV cases, but R U' R' and R U2 R' should be pretty obvious, so that leaves 25.) Honestly though, maybe you should try learning alternative OLL algs instead of whatever you're using now.
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Well, I can't seem to fingertrick with my left hand so I have to modify a few algs to suit me. Btw learning 27 algs doesn't seem like a lot to me.
 
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