ZZ Cubers

JohnnyA

Member
I'm gradually switching my main method from Fridrich to ZZ. It's a great method once you get used to EOLine - I can now do it in about 3-5 seconds consistently and my average for the entire ZZ solve is about 25.

I don't think ZZ gets enough attention on this forum. I was wondering how many people use ZZ as a speedcubing method, how many are learning it and if there are people still working on developing it. Post here with times/averages/advice etc. if you are a ZZ cuber and lets try and convert more people to ZZ.

suhas2112

Member
Sorry to be a noob, but what is ZZ? Is it the zebrowski(spell check) method?

Escher

Babby
use the search function!!!

i use ZZ, but not as a speedsolving method.

im really rubbish at EOLine, but when its easy (check the weird/hard/funny scrambles thread for a good ZZ scramble i posted a while ago) or i do it before i start timing, i get very fast times - as good as or better than my fridrich times.
i average about 17s with fridrich (after a bit of warmup), and i couldnt really say what i average with ZZ, as my preinspection is more like 2 minutes than 15s, so it doesnt really count (in that time i could plan double or triple x-crosses for every fridrich solve...). but my single pb is 14.66 (including EOLine and normal preinspection) anyway.

JohnnyA

Member
Sorry to be a noob, but what is ZZ? Is it the zebrowski(spell check) method?

This is the main article on ZZ: http://www.emsee.110mb.com/Speedcubing/ZZ speedcubing system.html

use the search function!!!

i use ZZ, but not as a speedsolving method.

im really rubbish at EOLine, but when its easy (check the weird/hard/funny scrambles thread for a good ZZ scramble i posted a while ago) or i do it before i start timing, i get very fast times - as good as or better than my fridrich times.
i average about 17s with fridrich (after a bit of warmup), and i couldnt really say what i average with ZZ, as my preinspection is more like 2 minutes than 15s, so it doesnt really count (in that time i could plan double or triple x-crosses for every fridrich solve...). but my single pb is 14.66 (including EOLine and normal preinspection) anyway.

EOLine takes a lot of getting used to. The way I do it is to put a finger on every piece that needs to be reoriented, and from there I can see the "shape" of the bad pieces and find the first move. I can normally get the 5-7 moves (avg) it takes to do eoline in 15 seconds, although if I want to actually plan the time it takes about 30.

The F2L I find awkward having never practiced fingertricks on my left hand (left handed, oddly enough) but it's improving.

yurivish

Member
i switched to ZZ when the thread about it appeared on this forum. At the time, I was averaging around 25 with Fridrich. Now my best average with ZZ is 19.10.

I still don't fully preispect the EOline, I just look for the orientation and sometimes keep track of the two edges. I also end up doing EOCross quite often—It's more moves, I think, but the F2L is easier and more fun.

Escher

Babby
you dont have to use your LH - just finish the RH block, and then put the f2l in your left hand - a z rotation (?), so you can finish the 'LH' part with RU, but you have to get used to f2l on your left first...
i too am awful with my LH, so i feel your pain!

my EOLine is pretty slow, but generally quite efficient. being opposite Line neutral is useful too

yurivish

Member
you dont have to use your LH - just finish the RH block, and then put the f2l in your left hand - a z rotation (?), so you can finish the 'LH' part with RU, but you have to get used to f2l on your left first...
i too am awful with my LH, so i feel your pain!

my EOLine is pretty slow, but generally quite efficient. being opposite Line neutral is useful too

I recommend just sticking with using your left hand. It gets easier after a while. One of the ups of ZZ is that you don't have to do any cube rotations at all. I do my F2L irregularly, with both sides done simultaneously. Then I don't rotate for the COLL, nor for the PLL.

Escher

Babby
I recommend just sticking with using your left hand. It gets easier after a while. One of the ups of ZZ is that you don't have to do any cube rotations at all. I do my F2L irregularly, with both sides done simultaneously. Then I don't rotate for the COLL, nor for the PLL.

perhaps you're right.
ill probably just practice two-gen solves with LU to get things better, and keep the z plane rotation as a stopgap solution as i train my LH...

i have a friend who only recently started fridrich, and i think im going to try and convert him to ZZ once he's a bit more experienced. he will be my experiment!! mwa ha ha.
but seriously, i have to start recommending this to the newer cubers - it has so much potential as a method!

apart from zborowski, are there any pure (or mostly) ZZ users who are sub 18/17?

JohnnyA

Member
I would say doing a cube rotation isn't a great idea for ZZ. The point of the method when the "link" is found is to be 2gen, but for now the method is to keep it 3gen and using rotations in f2l ruins that. Fingertricks for left hand are taking a while but will be worth it I think

Lord Voldemort

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
I accidentally deleted my post somehow.
anyway, is recognition for 800 algorithms really practical?
The 300 to put in the last F2l pair seems ok, but the 500 to get 1LLL seems sort of iffy. If it's so great, then why hasn't anyone done that with Petrus?

Escher

Babby
I accidentally deleted my post somehow.
anyway, is recognition for 800 algorithms really practical?
The 300 to put in the last F2l pair seems ok, but the 500 to get 1LLL seems sort of iffy. If it's so great, then why hasn't anyone done that with Petrus?

errrrrr what?

you are mixed up.

the ZZ method does away with ZBF2l (those three hundred algs you talk about), as you orient edges already, so once you have finished f2l, then ZBF2l has already been 'done'.
then ZBLL is solving EP, CP and CO at the same time, hence 500 algs (or whatever).
you can use ZBLL with ZZ.
COLL splits up ZBLL - solve CO and CP at the same time, and then finish EP with 4 more algorithms.

Lord Voldemort

He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named
I was confused between the full ZZ and the Z-b I think.

blah

brah
I just tried ZZ for the first time today, and I got 21.xx average of 12 for my first 12 solves. I average 17.xx with Fridrich. Should I switch?

I tried ZZ for OH, it's kinda awkward at the moment, and I'm way slower than my Fridrich average, but I think I'll see some progress soon enough

bamman1108

Member
I don't get how to do it from that link on the first page. Can anyone explain it at all?

yurivish

Member
I just tried ZZ for the first time today, and I got 21.xx average of 12 for my first 12 solves. I average 17.xx with Fridrich. Should I switch?

I tried ZZ for OH, it's kinda awkward at the moment, and I'm way slower than my Fridrich average, but I think I'll see some progress soon enough

That's kinda crazy.

How are you so good at.. Never mind. Just looked at your sig.

For me, edge orientation was the killer for a while. My EOLine/cross step still isn't that good.

But yeah, if you like the feel of the F2L then switch away! That's a pretty damn good time to get at the very outset. I was averaging from 40 seconds to a minute when I first started (I was new both to edge orientation and blockbuilding), and 25 with Fridrich.

blah

brah
I'm too used to my Fridrich F2L rhythm It goes something like: bunch of right-handed moves, y rotation, some more right-handed moves, another y rotation, even more right-handed moves, probably a y' rotation, finish off the last slot. My left hand's as good as dead.

Now this stupid ZZ is forcing me to use my left hand and it's killing me and I've gotta relearn some F2L algs too, some optimal ones are not 2-gen.

I don't know how long my inspection is, probably 30 seconds or so. I don't plan EOLine, I just plan EO, which can be as fast as cross inspection if I get 4 or fewer bad edges, or it can take up to 30 seconds if I've got 6 or 8, I've only got one or two 10's so far, which I just gave up and did pure Fridrich

My universal average (of about ~50) is about 23-24 now. Guess I got lucky during the first 12

I'm consistently getting sub-35 for OH now, with occasional ~45-second bad cases My Fridrich average is about 30, I imagine myself getting much faster once I learn COLL Any opinions?

Edit: @yurivish: I just got what you meant by "just looked at your sig"! Umm, no, my err... what do you call that? "Proficiency"? My proficiency(?) in EO has nothing to do with BLD, I do M2 I just did a bit of homework for about an hour before I started ZZ, so I got the whole "intuitive feel" for EO, that's all. I'll post something up in this thread once I've done enough homework, it's probably gonna do beginners some good if they're lost at EO.

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a small kitten

Member
Yurivish got me into it, so I'm gradually switching from color neutral Fridrich to ZZ. I would assume that ZZ is good for one hand since it eliminates awkward rotation and reduces move count. And lol, I'm the opposite of you. My left hand is very fast but my right hand is slow. However, I practiced the sexy move and now it's a lot better.

I don't fully plan the EO line either, because once the edges are oriented the line is easy to make anyway. I'm still working on that. Also trying to get the hang of block building and not making the EO cross every time.

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blah

brah
Does anyone have any concrete evidence that ZZ has a lower move count than Fridrich? So far my experience tells me no, at least up to the completion of F2L, it definitely takes more moves than Fridrich.

EOLine > cross, RUL-F2L > 6-gen F2L. I don't see how ZZ's move count can be lower than Fridrich.

What happens after F2L is a different story, because there are lots of 1-look LL theories going on, but I don't think anyone's learned full ZBLL yet? Nor "the 1-look LL with UF and UB solved"-thingy?

a small kitten

Member
Or maybe it just appears to be faster for me because I can RUL fast lol. I don't have any evidence, but if you are going to block build I'm assuming that it's going to be lower move count. The ZZ page says 47 moves for 1LLL. When you say

EOLine > cross, RUL-F2L > 6-gen F2L.

are you making a full cross or just the EO line? You just need the EO line.

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blah

brah
Optimal cross takes a maximum of 8 moves. Optimal EOLine takes 9. And if I remember correctly, the average number of moves for EOLine is slightly higher than cross.

About this: RUL-F2L > 6-gen F2L. My bad. I was assuming everyone did Fridrich style F2L for ZZ, like I do I guess block building does reduce the move count.

And I just did a non-RA of 12 for OH using ZZ: 31.95 = 33.51, 31.62, 35.80, 32.62, 39.86, (25.23), 32.16, (46.41), 27.66, 27.12, 27.96, 31.16. And I got 2 OLL skips among those, and lots of sunes/antisunes. ZZ pwns. I average 30 with Fridrich. This calls for change!

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