[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[Baku]

1. I think ZZ would suit you just fine and if you don't think CFOP is interesting, I wouldn't do it at all. Cubing is supposed to be fun isn't it?

2. In my opinion, I would switch over now just because the sooner the better.

3/4. All my advice would be is just taking as much time as you need to plan EOLine as you need to since if you screw it up, you will get pretty disorientated for the rest of the solve (as you probably saw in your 50.15 solve). Other than that, just take your time and have fun with it.

 

[TDM]

Welcome to the forums.

1. From what you've read do you think ZZ would suit me or should I just stick it out with CFOP?
2. If so should I switch now or later? (e.g. when I get to sub 20 CFOP)
3. Does anyone with any experience switching from CFOP to ZZ have any advice?
4. Any tips on learning ZZ/Practice?

1. If you find rotationless F2Ls very fast, then ZZ sounds good for you, but if you've learned full OLL you may want to stick with CFOP. I use CFOP for 2H and ZZ for OH; that's something a few people do and is always an option. An alternative is to ignore LL edges when you orient edges, so you can still use full OLL and have an easier EOLine, but then you can have some bad OLL cases. It's up to you.
2. If you want to switch methods, switch as early as possible i.e. now.
3 and 4. Don't always pair the corner with the edge that goes in the E layer, like you're making a pair for CFOP F2L. It's sometimes faster to pair the corner with the edge that goes in the D layer. When practising EOLine, take as long as you want to plan out EO at first; you will get faster with practise. Eventually you'll be wanting to plan the full EOLine, but at first just aim to plan EO.

 

[mark49152]

Just curious, but does anyone solve ZZ F2L in <RUD> with line on left?

 

[aznanimedude]

Hello and welcome.

1. It depends on the person. Some pick up ZZ and it immediately calls to them, some dont like it. Make the call on your own. Try doing only ZZ for a month. See if it feels good and you like it. If you do stay, if you dont, switch back to CFOP.

2. You dont have to postpone it toll youre sub 20. Most of the ZZ solvers I know were not awesome CFOP solvers when they switched. I certainly wasn't. And uva was a nub and now look at him.

3. Practice EOLine, try doing a bunch of solves where you force yourself to make the first 1x2x2 by pairing the corner with the bottom layer edge not the middle layer edge, to give you a feel of what that case looks like and so you have it in your mind. Also ZZF2L is simple enough but there's also small nuances that you pick up that might not be evident to start but are pretty cool

4. Practice predicting where everything ends up so the line is formed easier and more fluidly. Also same as CFOP learn where your first pair will be to reduce pauses and such

Welcome

 

[aznanimedude]

Just curious, but does anyone solve ZZ F2L in <RUD> with line on left?

For 1h yes to solve left block

 

[mDiPalma]

Just curious, but does anyone solve ZZ F2L in <RUD> with line on left?

ya bra, it's ZZ-LOL (line on left)

i use it for the LOLs (get it?)

 

[whiteleys]

Thanks for the quick replies everyone, all your advice was very helpful. I'm gunna toy about with the EOLine some more and switch after I get a few more exams out the way and can do more practice, once again cheers guys.

 

[mark49152]

ya bra, it's ZZ-LOL (line on left)

i use it for the LOLs (get it?)

Any good videos of ZZ being done this way?

 

[Petro Leum]

Hey guys, I've been wondering whether I should switch to ZZ from CFOP or not. I've read through all the posts I can find about switching to ZZ and I'm still undecided, probably because its a personal thing so I'd like to ask for some advice that is specific to me if possible. Firstly some background info:

I've been solving with CFOP for a couple months and know full OLL and PLL and am pretty comfortable with F2L. I'm mainly working on my look ahead at the moment. I solve dual cross and can often find Xcrosses (maybe this skill would lend itself well to zzf2l?). My tps is dreadful, not that that's really relevant at this speed.

With CFOP I average about about 24.5s. However I am rather inconsistent, demonstrated by my PB being 15.9s (fullstep but Xcross and a U perm at the end). My PB was a rotationless F2L solve and I find that when I get rotationless F2L my times are often about 5 or so seconds less than my average. This seemed like quite a big difference to me but it made sense because my rotations were terrible when i timed them (for example the rotation in the standard V perm adds about 1s onto the time to do it for me). It is this difference that made me look into ZZ.

I skimwatched (new word) asmallkitten's tutorials which I found very useful and toyed about with the EOLine step from time to time when I've gotten bored of repetitive CFOP solving and didn't find it too hard, probably because I've always considered F2L from an oriented/not oriented standpoint. I finally got round to doing an average of 5 today (I was a bit pushed for time so no average of 12) and got a 34.5s average (or 32.2 if you discount the lowest and highest), the specific times of which are shown below. As well as this when I slow solve, I don't find blockbuilding the f2l too hard and almost never go for EOcross which from what I've read is meant to be an important thing to get the hang of.

Anyway before this becomes unnecessarily long, here are the average of 5 times and scrambles, seeing as its the next best thing after reconstructions and videos, which I unfortunately can't provide right now:

1. 34.17 D' R2 U2 R2 L2 U R2 D2 B2 R2 F2 R' B2 U L2 U B' U' L' D2 B' F'
2. 50.15 D R2 U F2 U L2 F2 R2 D' B2 R B' D U' F' L2 D' F' R' L2 U2
3. 26.06 L2 U2 B2 U' B2 U' F2 U' R2 L2 B2 L U L' D' B2 F U2 B' D' L
4. 29.51 U R2 D2 B2 R2 U F2 R2 D' F2 U' L U R B D' R2 L2 F2 L' B D2
5. 32.39 R2 U' B2 R2 D B2 U' B2 D F2 U B' L F D2 B D' U' R U' L'

The 50.15 was a completely botched EOLine and on all the solves I was noticing things I could do so much better with a bit of practice.

So yeah, my questions are:
1. From what you've read do you think ZZ would suit me or should I just stick it out with CFOP?
2. If so should I switch now or later? (e.g. when I get to sub 20 CFOP)
3. Does anyone with any experience switching from CFOP to ZZ have any advice?
4. Any tips on learning ZZ/Practice?

Thanks in advance, Whiteleys
P.S. First post

1. yes.
2. now.
3. Forget everything CFOP; never ever solve cfop again while you are in the switching process. dont even think about cfop.
4. if speedsolving with zz demotivates you because your times will be alot worse in the beginning, just do only untimed solves. try to slowturn properly and maintain proper lookahead tho.

 

[Petro Leum]

Just curious, but does anyone solve ZZ F2L in <RUD> with line on left?

I tried it again and again, but i could never quite get the hang of it, despite my D moves being faster than my L moves .... i think its because its harder to look at the D side while solving. :/

I think ZZ-LOL has good potential tho, you just gotta get used to looking on D

On a side note; i have also thought about being second block neutral - that is, if you have solved left block (L) first, you could do the second 1x2x3 on R or on U.

This would save moves, but it would also add another thinking process ( deciding which block to build) and it requires to have proper LL recognition on R side color

EDIT: w00ps, double post. mods plz merge?

 

[mDiPalma]

Any good videos of ZZ being done this way?

yo, i'll post a video average in the next couple of days.

I'll probably start with an xeoline at DBR just so I don't have to worry about what's back there.

I actually haven't done ZZ in a while; I've been busy with Petrus and Heise lol.

 

[mark49152]

yo, i'll post a video average in the next couple of days..

Thanks!

 

[ChickenWrap]

Question....

Which would be better to learn, OCELL/CPLL or COLL/EPLL? And which has the best chance of skips?

 

[TheNextFeliks]

Question....

Which would be better to learn, OCELL/CPLL or COLL/EPLL? And which has the best chance of skips?

Both have 1/12 odds of skip. OCELL is 2GLL but recognition can be kinda bad. COLL recog is good for some cases and kinda tough for others especially sunes. EPLL is nicer than CPLL in general.

 

[mDiPalma]

Just curious, but does anyone solve ZZ F2L in <RUD> with line on left?

Ask, and you shall receive.

Spoiler

Btw ZZ-LOL is really a terrible variant. It's probably my least favorite type of ZZ, because:

-It really restricts my blockbuilding-order, which devastates my efficiency.

-I literally have no idea what's going on at DB. Like absolutely no idea. I can only pray that there's just U-layer edges back there.

-I usually use algorithmic F2L for the last pairs on the ZZF2L blocks (it's how I learned ), which is really hard to translate over a z-rotation.

-During most of my solves, I influence the LL during the F2L, (WV, phasing, forcing a l3c case), which also is nearly impossible for me over a z-rotation.

All in all, if you really wanted to make the switch, figured out a way to build an xeoline at DB consistently, and relearned all your last-slot cases, then ZZ-LOL might be superior to standard ZZ. However, because the vast majority of ZZ-ers are either too far along to make the change or are too new to truly understand the benefits of [RUD], I don't think anyone will be legitimately pursuing ZZ-LOL...ever.

 

[Petro Leum]

Ask, and you shall receive.

Spoiler

Btw ZZ-LOL is really a terrible variant. It's probably my least favorite type of ZZ, because:

-It really restricts my blockbuilding-order, which devastates my efficiency.

-I literally have no idea what's going on at DB. Like absolutely no idea. I can only pray that there's just U-layer edges back there.

-I usually use algorithmic F2L for the last pairs on the ZZF2L blocks (it's how I learned ), which is really hard to translate over a z-rotation.

-During most of my solves, I influence the LL during the F2L, (WV, phasing, forcing a l3c case), which also is nearly impossible for me over a z-rotation.

All in all, if you really wanted to make the switch, figured out a way to build an xeoline at DB consistently, and relearned all your last-slot cases, then ZZ-LOL might be superior to standard ZZ. However, because the vast majority of ZZ-ers are either too far along to make the change or are too new to truly understand the benefits of [RUD], I don't think anyone will be legitimately pursuing ZZ-LOL...ever.

well said. that is exactly what i found when i experimented with it.
just the first point "it restricts your blockbuilding order"- what do you mean?

 

[TDM]

well said. that is exactly what i found when i experimented with it.
just the first point "it restricts your blockbuilding order"- what do you mean?

He builds a block in DBR first to help with lookahead.

 

[mark49152]

Ask, and you shall receive.

This is really cool, thanks. I'm a CFOP solver who likes <RUD> algs and finds switching between L/R grips in F2L to be one of the factors keeping me slow. So the idea of doing ZZ F2L with a fixed left-hand grip and fast left-hand flicks for the inserts seems very appealing to me. I might have a play around with it and see how I get on.

 

[Petro Leum]

He builds a block in DBR first to help with lookahead.

ya but if he does that it invalidates the his second point, because its irrelevant if he then keep just building the DBR block first :/
w/e its not too important anyway

 

[mDiPalma]

ya but if he does that it invalidates the his second point, because its irrelevant if he then keep just building the DBR block first :/
w/e its not too important anyway

I like to build the "left" and "right" block entirely at once (so I cancel moves, etc). This requires that I have some idea of where all the pieces required for each block are. However, when I can't see the orientations of my F2L corners, or I can't even find the edges (lol), I end up solving the cube by 1) placing the cross edges, 2) solving the F2L like CFOP, which is terrible for my efficiency.