[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion

[TDM]

Hi, everyone! I started ZZ two weeks back, and I average about a minute or so now.
I'm planning to be Y-axis CN from the beginning itself, so what I do is practise solves alternating between green/blue and red/orange front, and it helps a lot. My EO inspection is terrible, but it's almost the same for any choice of F
Is it worth it to learn the Sune/Antisune COLL sets? I'm asking because I've noticed that Phil doesn't (and another bunch of people don't) but I just saw a thread where someone (I think his username was "bleh") had a nice recog explanation.

I have a really long and complicated explanation of a very simple method for being y-axis neutral here.
As for A/S COLL, the purpose of COLL is to do one normal alg, and one short fast 2-gen one. With the Sune and Antisune cases, doing OCLL/PLL is just as fast because you're still doing a normal alg and a short fast 2-gen one, but just in a different order. Because recognition isn't as good for Sune/Antisune COLL, you'd be better just doing OCLL and then PLL. Also, it was probably blah (not bleh ).

 

[Awesoham]

I've read your explanation, and IMHO it wasn't complicated, just slightly confused (but still very helpful).

 

[TDM]

I've read your explanation, and IMHO it wasn't complicated, just slightly confused (but still very helpful).

I can't explain anything well. I've never been able to.

OT: I've starting using ZZ as my main method again. I'm still turning very slowly, but I'm averaging 18.5, which is decent.

 

[brian724080]

I can't explain anything well. I've never been able to.

OT: I've starting using ZZ as my main method again. I'm still turning very slowly, but I'm averaging 18.5, which is decent.

You used to use CFOP right? What did you average?

 

[TDM]

You used to use CFOP right? What did you average?

Yeah I did, and I averaged 15. Sub-15 on some days, sup-15 on others.

 

[brian724080]

Yeah I did, and I averaged 15. Sub-15 on some days, sup-15 on others.

Same here, but I decided to change entirely to ZZ, and I average 15-16 seconds now

 

[TDM]

I'm now average anywhere between 18 and 20, but most of the time 18. I just did an EOLine Ao12:
2.84, 5.79+, 3.11, 7.08, 6.98, 3.70, 2.45, 5.42, 2.37, 2.44, 2.92, 3.74 = 3.94.
I know this is bad, but how bad? What should I be aiming for? Sorry if I've asked this question before, which I might have done, and then quit ZZ and forgotten about it...

 

[brian724080]

I'm now average anywhere between 18 and 20, but most of the time 18. I just did an EOLine Ao12:
2.84, 5.79+, 3.11, 7.08, 6.98, 3.70, 2.45, 5.42, 2.37, 2.44, 2.92, 3.74 = 3.94.
I know this is bad, but how bad? What should I be aiming for? Sorry if I've asked this question before, which I might have done, and then quit ZZ and forgotten about it...

I'm no expert, but I found that it really helped to predict exactly where the line pieces will be. I used to misplace my line pieces such that they're a D2 away from solved. That means I have to do M2 U2 M2 mid-solve to fix it...facepalm

 

[Amress]

I know this discussion is mainly for ZZ, but technically, the thread is also for ZB. Would it be a decent idea to implement ZBF2L into my OH solves for 3x3 so that I always get a COLL for an EPLL, or is it not worth it?

 

[TDM]

I know this discussion is mainly for ZZ, but technically, the thread is also for ZB. Would it be a decent idea to implement ZBF2L into my OH solves for 3x3 so that I always get a COLL for an EPLL, or is it not worth it?

It would be much better to just use ZZ. The F2L would be easier for OH and you would have fewer algs to learn.

 

[Amress]

Thanks, but I will not switch to ZZ. I switched a long time ago, but I didn't think that ZZ had the same two hand potential, so I gave up. Would my ZBF2L idea be any good? Has anyone already proposed this idea?

 

[TDM]

Thanks, but I will not switch to ZZ. I switched a long time ago, but I didn't think that ZZ had the same two hand potential, so I gave up. Would my ZBF2L idea be any good? Has anyone already proposed this idea?

Or you could do what I've done for 8 months and use CFOP for 2H and ZZ for OH. I never really got confused because I've never connected ZZ with 2H (well I did for a month or so and am doing so again now) or CFOP with OH, in the same way that I don't think of M2 when I think of 3x3 2H. It's just not a method I use for 2H. If you really want to learn full ZBLS, which is a lot of algs, then do so, but remember that a lot of them aren't fast to execute OH (most things involving EO aren't) and it will take a lot of time. Plus, because each case is so rare (there are 12*43 cases), you may end up not using algs for a while and forget them or be unable to recall which alg solves which case. I don't think either ZBLS or ZBLL is a good idea, but Bindedsa is showing me that it could work (he finds very efficient solutions and apparently doesn't have much problem with recall), so if you want to try learning ZBLS then I can't stop you.

 

[Awesoham]

I got four sub-31s in the last two days: that's 15s less than my last (CFOP) average.

 

[Petro Leum]

does anyone agree we should update the list and the first post?

 

[TDM]

does anyone agree we should update the list and the first post?

Yeah, if we can. There's probably some more ZZ resources that have been made since 2010, as well as more users of the method.

 

[Baku]

Well, you can add me to the list as a ZZ user.

 

[ChickenWrap]

I recently switched to ZZ (been using it for 2 days now) and I have a few questions...

1. I can now identify wrong edges very quickly but if I have 6 wrong, I have to hold my fingers on all of the wrong ones. If I practice, will I be able to visualize all the wrong edges?

2. If I post a video of a couple of my ZZ solves, could I get some advice on how to improve?

3. I did an ao50 yesterday and got 27 seconds (but I still have tons of pauses during EO line). Is there anything general I should start working on just based off of my times?

4. I know the 7 OLLs and some of the 21 PLL algs. Would it be beneficial to learn COLL or should I wait until I am faster? I hate learning new algs but I see how COLL/EPLL could produce more skips than OLL/PLL...

 

[TDM]

I recently switched to ZZ (been using it for 2 days now) and I have a few questions...

1. I can now identify wrong edges very quickly but if I have 6 wrong, I have to hold my fingers on all of the wrong ones. If I practice, will I be able to visualize all the wrong edges?

2. If I post a video of a couple of my ZZ solves, could I get some advice on how to improve?

3. I did an ao50 yesterday and got 27 seconds (but I still have tons of pauses during EO line). Is there anything general I should start working on just based off of my times?

4. I know the 7 OLLs and some of the 21 PLL algs. Would it be beneficial to learn COLL or should I wait until I am faster? I hate learning new algs but I see how COLL/EPLL could produce more skips than OLL/PLL...

1. Probably, don't ask me for help with EOLine, mine is awful.
2. Yes, but I'd imagine you would have problems with the EOLine (both parts and the transition), lookahead and blockbuilding (more specifically always pairing the corner with the E layer edge like CFOP F2L instead of sometimes pairing it with the D layer edge) without needing a video.
3. Splits would be more helpful... but nobody's really decided what are good splits for ZZ. At least they'd give us/you an idea of what to improve.
4. COLL isn't particularly useful for 2H; many people say it's about the same speed as OLL/PLL, but it's faster for OH because you finish with an EPLL. For now, finish learning PLL and don't worry about COLL.

 

[aznanimedude]

I recently switched to ZZ (been using it for 2 days now) and I have a few questions...

1. I can now identify wrong edges very quickly but if I have 6 wrong, I have to hold my fingers on all of the wrong ones. If I practice, will I be able to visualize all the wrong edges?

2. If I post a video of a couple of my ZZ solves, could I get some advice on how to improve?

3. I did an ao50 yesterday and got 27 seconds (but I still have tons of pauses during EO line). Is there anything general I should start working on just based off of my times?

4. I know the 7 OLLs and some of the 21 PLL algs. Would it be beneficial to learn COLL or should I wait until I am faster? I hate learning new algs but I see how COLL/EPLL could produce more skips than OLL/PLL...

1. yes, you will get to the point that you don't have to really place fingers to know where they are, it's not actually that hard, just takes a bit of getting used to

2. sure, that's always a good way to see where things might be off, pauses make up a fair bit of it though, although if you ever see my solves, i have dumb fingertricking QQ

3. video could probably help a lot with seeing any issues that aren't due to pausing. For pausing, slowing down a bit so you can focus more on the next move could help a bit with that

4. COLL could induce more skips, but it's a point of no return. COLL is nice, but don't underestimate OCLL + PLL speed, because once you learn COLL, there will now almost always be that slight extra split second where you now recognize the corner cycle that won't be present if you just do an OCLL into PLL. sure you cut out some of the awkward PLLs you might not like, but you also can cut out ones that are very fast to execute. In the end it is up to you, knowing them can be helpful but try not to think it's absolutely required to be fast.



i should actually try listening to my own advice though

 

[whiteleys]

Hey guys, I've been wondering whether I should switch to ZZ from CFOP or not. I've read through all the posts I can find about switching to ZZ and I'm still undecided, probably because its a personal thing so I'd like to ask for some advice that is specific to me if possible. Firstly some background info:

I've been solving with CFOP for a couple months and know full OLL and PLL and am pretty comfortable with F2L. I'm mainly working on my look ahead at the moment. I solve dual cross and can often find Xcrosses (maybe this skill would lend itself well to zzf2l?). My tps is dreadful, not that that's really relevant at this speed.

With CFOP I average about about 24.5s. However I am rather inconsistent, demonstrated by my PB being 15.9s (fullstep but Xcross and a U perm at the end). My PB was a rotationless F2L solve and I find that when I get rotationless F2L my times are often about 5 or so seconds less than my average. This seemed like quite a big difference to me but it made sense because my rotations were terrible when i timed them (for example the rotation in the standard V perm adds about 1s onto the time to do it for me). It is this difference that made me look into ZZ.

I skimwatched (new word) asmallkitten's tutorials which I found very useful and toyed about with the EOLine step from time to time when I've gotten bored of repetitive CFOP solving and didn't find it too hard, probably because I've always considered F2L from an oriented/not oriented standpoint. I finally got round to doing an average of 5 today (I was a bit pushed for time so no average of 12) and got a 34.5s average (or 32.2 if you discount the lowest and highest), the specific times of which are shown below. As well as this when I slow solve, I don't find blockbuilding the f2l too hard and almost never go for EOcross which from what I've read is meant to be an important thing to get the hang of.

Anyway before this becomes unnecessarily long, here are the average of 5 times and scrambles, seeing as its the next best thing after reconstructions and videos, which I unfortunately can't provide right now:

1. 34.17 D' R2 U2 R2 L2 U R2 D2 B2 R2 F2 R' B2 U L2 U B' U' L' D2 B' F'
2. 50.15 D R2 U F2 U L2 F2 R2 D' B2 R B' D U' F' L2 D' F' R' L2 U2
3. 26.06 L2 U2 B2 U' B2 U' F2 U' R2 L2 B2 L U L' D' B2 F U2 B' D' L
4. 29.51 U R2 D2 B2 R2 U F2 R2 D' F2 U' L U R B D' R2 L2 F2 L' B D2
5. 32.39 R2 U' B2 R2 D B2 U' B2 D F2 U B' L F D2 B D' U' R U' L'

The 50.15 was a completely botched EOLine and on all the solves I was noticing things I could do so much better with a bit of practice.

So yeah, my questions are:
1. From what you've read do you think ZZ would suit me or should I just stick it out with CFOP?
2. If so should I switch now or later? (e.g. when I get to sub 20 CFOP)
3. Does anyone with any experience switching from CFOP to ZZ have any advice?
4. Any tips on learning ZZ/Practice?

Thanks in advance, Whiteleys
P.S. First post