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[Help Thread] ZZ and ZB Discussion
- Thread starter koreancuber
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GuRoux
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- 2014TANG03
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Seeing Alex Lau kinda affected me, actually. So there is that kind of potential with ZZ in terms of speed (not move-count efficiency), and all that's stopping us is the fact that nobody's practised enough with ZZ?
Cool, back to ZZ then!
i have always had that feeling that zz is better than cfop but for some reason it's popularity isn't growing too fast.
PJKCuber
Member
ZZ and Roux and CFOP are pretty fast. I think Roux is the fastest even though I use CFOP. If anybody manages to learn all the algs for ZB, that would be very fast.
GuRoux
Member
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well, roux and zz is a little bit harder to compare since the method are a lot more different that zz and cfop.
elrog
Member
I think ZZ is the undisputed best for OH, but I think it is slightly slower for 2H than Roux or CFOP. I have not studied that deep into OH, but I think COLL/ELL and a particular version of ZZ-d are the best 2. I really can't say which is better though. As for which is best out of Roux and CFOP, I think CFOP is slightly better, but I still don't think it is the best possible method for 2H.
lorki3
Member
I've been learning ZZ specifically for OH and the F2L can get super sexy, the entire solve just becomes awesome if you use COLL
guysensei1
Member
I've been learning ZZ specifically for OH and the F2L can get super sexy, the entire solve just becomes awesome if you use COLL
Please, ZZ-blah -> ZBLL pi/ZBLL H is sexier.
It's a shame no one uses it.
Ninja Storm
Member
The problem with methods other than CFOP is that they don't transition into other puzzles very well, specifically big cubes. That could be a problem with popularity.
Petro Leum
Member
but big cubes suck
Lazy Einstein
Alg Ninja
How is ZZ slower than Cfop 2H? Just a general statement or is there a part of the method that is limiting at high speeds? I am new to ZZ.
elrog
Member
For 2H, you still need to regrip to switch between <LU> and <RU>, so you may as well have rotations. The EO line is slightly longer than cross, and solves less pieces. OCLL/PLL is also barely an improvement from OLL/PLL because some of the best cases (F R U R' U' F' for example).
BaMiao
Member
Regrips between <LU> and <RU> are significantly faster than rotations, and it's not like CFOP doesn't have those regrips, as well.
As far as LL, you are ignoring the bad OLL cases (like dot cases) that are significantly worse than any OCLL. That isn't to mention the flexibility of using COLL, WV, ZBLL, etc. ZZ has a much nicer last layer than CFOP, and I don't think that's really a big area of contention. If that wasn't the case, CFOP users wouldn't go through all the trouble to learn edge control.
I do agree that EOline is the main problem with ZZ. The first issue is that it turns beginners away due to the steep learning curve. The other issue is that the complexity makes it difficult to look ahead into F2L. An intermediate CFOP user can often plan the cross and predict the first f2l pair during inspection. The same can't really be said for an intermediate ZZ user, who has to deal with both a more difficult EOline and tracking three pieces for first block.
Overall, ZZ should be about as good as CFOP or Roux, at least on paper. It really just takes one person to prove it.
Lazy Einstein
Alg Ninja
Thinking of switching for 2H ZZ.
I have been solving ZZ for a few days and I don't need more than 15 secs for EO anymore; sometimes on 8 bad edges I don't plan the line but I have the EO planned. I am still SUPER new however.
Seems like ZZ should be faster than CFOP.
Block building gives the chance to finish 50% of F2L fast. Taking away the XCross advantage one could argue that CFOP gives you over ZZ during F2L
EO OLL is OP, Only need to know 7 OLLs increasing your chance at look ahead into OLL. 1/8 chance of OLL skip. ZBLLs and COLL.
LS with EO means you can use WV and CLS everytime.
No WAY CFOP is faster end game. I can't see it. I feel that maybe my noobery is making me miss something for CFOP but I just don't get how it could be faster.
Worst part of ZZ is Lookahead from EOline to F2L. Maybe sub-10 that is a deal breaker for being faster than CFOP
Look ahead is look ahead. So if you are good at it an extra piece at the start of F2L shouldn't be that difficult with enough training.
ZZ is superior LL no question.
I am just afraid to switch. I have this weird fear that I will just get bad at 3x3x3 hahah.
What is your biggest hurdle with ZZ?
I have been solving ZZ for a few days and I don't need more than 15 secs for EO anymore; sometimes on 8 bad edges I don't plan the line but I have the EO planned. I am still SUPER new however.
Seems like ZZ should be faster than CFOP.
Block building gives the chance to finish 50% of F2L fast. Taking away the XCross advantage one could argue that CFOP gives you over ZZ during F2L
EO OLL is OP, Only need to know 7 OLLs increasing your chance at look ahead into OLL. 1/8 chance of OLL skip. ZBLLs and COLL.
LS with EO means you can use WV and CLS everytime.
No WAY CFOP is faster end game. I can't see it. I feel that maybe my noobery is making me miss something for CFOP but I just don't get how it could be faster.
Worst part of ZZ is Lookahead from EOline to F2L. Maybe sub-10 that is a deal breaker for being faster than CFOP
Look ahead is look ahead. So if you are good at it an extra piece at the start of F2L shouldn't be that difficult with enough training.
ZZ is superior LL no question.
I am just afraid to switch. I have this weird fear that I will just get bad at 3x3x3 hahah.
What is your biggest hurdle with ZZ?
guysensei1
Member
I don't know much about ZZ, but it's got to be EOline. From the few (100+) solves I tried for fun, EOline was by far the most difficult step.
Petro Leum
Member
what do you mean with "hurdle"?
the biggest hurdle for ZZ to be fast is the transition from EOLine to F2L. its just incredibly hard to plan EOLine+1 or lookahead while doing EOLine
my biggest hurdle for ZZ when i was learning it was getting rid of all those nasty CFOP F2L habits
my biggest hurdle for ZZ now is learning those 169 ZZLL algs and drilling them all at the same time to get them on par with PLL times
lorki3
Member
Please, ZZ-blah -> ZBLL pi/ZBLL H is sexier.
It's a shame no one uses it.
I can imagine that being quite awesome.
Are there some solves displaying this variation of ZZ?
lorki3
Member
Which last layer method do you guys like best for 2H? I decided on using WV, but I'm wondering what's recommend by you all.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Randomno
Banned
I forgt I was in the ZZ thread for a second and got really confused...
BaMiao
Member
I use mostly COLL (no sune/antisune) and a few WV cases. This is pretty typical. I believe most just pick out the fastest cases from the various sets and change the strategy depending on the last slot/last layer. Trying to use WV every solve is not normally recommended, but recognizing when you have good cases can make for some fast singles.
Oh, and to answer your other question, I know of no one who uses ZZ-blah as a primary strategy. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong here.
