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Religion thread... with a catch

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PatrickJameson

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evolution is indeed an amazing thing.
It takes an immense amount of blind faith to believe in evolution, much more than it takes to believe that God created everything. There is so much going against evolution, if you truly study it. I am talking about MACRO evolution, not micro evolution, which is basically adaptation. Evolution teaches such claims as "Nothing exploded and here we are!", or “we evolved from mud by pure chance”.
Consider the vastness and complexity of our universe, structure of a cell, intricacies of DNA, an atom, or a quark. These are so unbelievably complex and perfect that it would be a more intelligent statement to say that a pile of rubble evolved into a functioning watch, or a jumbo jet over billions of years, than what some scientists are claiming about the Big Bang and macro evolution. I say SOME, as I work in the science field and research, and am amazed just how many scientists are admitting that those claims cannot be true, as more evidence is coming up against evolution.
Only a few years ago our textbooks claimed our universe began millions of years ago, this number continues to escalate and is now at about 14 billion years and even that is nothing more than a guess. The Bible claims God created Earth and man about 6,000 years ago and there is much more evidence supporting that. Unlike “scientist’s” millions over the past few years, this number remained unchanged for thousands of years. Truth does not change.

Studying quarks that form atoms, we are finding out that everything is made of energy waves (sound waves, light waves, micro waves, etc.) Matter is not actually solid, but a huge amount of energy waves that work in perfect unison. When we speak, we create waves. Sound waves can be powerful enough to disrupt solid matter, such as glass. The Bible teaches that God SPOKE everything into existence. He created energy waves, then arranged them perfectly to form (the Big Bang!). He then created man out of mud (which is in a way what evolutionists teach, minus God, the Creator).

If you are set on believing something, search and study it out. Don’t accept something blindly, just because it sounds good.
I heard there are animals called lemmings that supposedly follow their “leader” to their doom. I have seen caterpillars walking on a rim of a plate, each one following the one in front, until they die of exhaustion. We, humans, are much like that. We pick someone and follow them, regardless of their validity, then we get so comfortable (maybe even proud) in our way that even if we see evidence that this person is wrong, we refuse to get on the right path. There are consequences to everything...
Are you trolling?
 
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I know this was a few pages back, but just so everyone knows, the Hebrew(or greek, I forget) word for circle is also the hebrew(again, maybe greek) word for sphere.
The Hebrew word used in describing our planet was "chuwg". This was used to describe an act of circling, as if you set off on a straight course from one point, you would circle back to the same point. This would not be possible on a flat surface and could only describe a globe.
 
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Hmmm, not intentionally, although I am not sure what exactly you mean, Patrick.

I am focusing on the original post by qqwref:
"convince me your religion is the right one Or at least try to make a good argument that other religions aren't."

When others chose to challenge my beliefs, is it not prudent to explain my stance?
 
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I don't think you understand how evolution works, or even what evolution tries to explain. Evolution says nothing about how the universe started, and it says nothing about the origin of life on Earth. Evolution only seeks to explain the diversity of life of Earth.

P.S: Macro evolution is the same as Micro evolution. The only difference is the amount of time.
 
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If you are set on believing something, search and study it out. Don’t accept something blindly, just because it sounds good.
I heard there are animals called lemmings that supposedly follow their “leader” to their doom. I have seen caterpillars walking on a rim of a plate, each one following the one in front, until they die of exhaustion. We, humans, are much like that. We pick someone and follow them, regardless of their validity, then we get so comfortable (maybe even proud) in our way that even if we see evidence that this person is wrong, we refuse to get on the right path. There are consequences to everything...
Anyoe else find it ironic that this logic is being used to defend religion?
 
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Organized religion can be dangerous. I understand your point. But I cannot control what every Buddhist does, or what every Christian does. I can only control myself. This is a universally applicable truth.

Sure, not a problem. No problem here.

As much as I wish people didn't believe in some of the things they did, to be human is to be able to freely choose and believe. That is why I say it is important to believe in what you follow. To follow a religion out of fear is insecurity.

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here.

What I mean mostly is that most religions produce much more good results than bad. And usually when it's a bad result, it's a misinterpretation.

This I'm going to slam you on. Really? Is this fair? So whenever someone does something good in the name of Allah, it's Islam. But when someone does something bad in the name of Allah, it's a misinterpretation?

"No true follower of religion will do something bad."
"But Duke is a follower of this religion, and he did something bad."
"Ah, but he's just misinterpreting it."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Logical fallacy you have provided.

The religion itself is hard pressed to control individual interpretations.

This is basically a restatement of what you said above. Everyone is responsible for their own actions.

If the man who killed the abortion doctor had really known the word of God, he would know that Jesus and his religion say that the ends do not justify the means.

No, that's your interpretation of Christianity. When did you become an authority on Christianity? He obviously disagrees with you.

Even if he thinks in this situation, the kill is self-defense, this is his problem.

Is it really his problem, or is it the dead doctor's problem? My problem with this is that people can justify their actions, and other people have to deal with the consequences.

Is it fueled by Christianity? Partially, but also mainly by fanaticism and zeal.

Is there any difference?

There are always members of groups who perform extreme actions, ones that don't define the group itself. Yes, some tragic things have happened as a result of Christianity, but also, many beautiful and wonderful things. Even if your morality is proportionalism, to sacrifice all the good social work and altruism that Christianity has performed for a few goof-ups doesn't seem entirely proportional.

They are a part of the group, and they are a part of the group's definition. The fact is that most of the altruism that Christians have been performed can be performed by other groups.

As for Buddhism, yes, there are examples. But there are also examples in every institution. The Buddha never claimed that his followers would be perfect at first. In the Dhammapada the Buddha says "Do not concern yourself with the faults of others, or what they have or haven't done. Concern yourself with what you yourself have or haven't done". I cannot answer for these people flaws. I can only learn from them.

I said that all of this applies to a good religion. Not every person in a good religion is a good person.

But I have enjoyed this conversation :)

Amitabha,
Jeff


I mean, there's a lot there. And this stuff is not simple to debate in text form because there are many points here. So instead of bothering with every thing I've written, I just want you to respond to my claim that your defense here is a fallacy, namely, the No True Scotsman fallacy.
 
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evolution is indeed an amazing thing.
It takes an immense amount of blind faith to believe in evolution, much more than it takes to believe that God created everything. There is so much going against evolution, if you truly study it. I am talking about MACRO evolution, not micro evolution, which is basically adaptation. Evolution teaches such claims as "Nothing exploded and here we are!", or “we evolved from mud by pure chance”.
Consider the vastness and complexity of our universe, structure of a cell, intricacies of DNA, an atom, or a quark. These are so unbelievably complex and perfect that it would be a more intelligent statement to say that a pile of rubble evolved into a functioning watch, or a jumbo jet over billions of years, than what some scientists are claiming about the Big Bang and macro evolution. I say SOME, as I work in the science field and research, and am amazed just how many scientists are admitting that those claims cannot be true, as more evidence is coming up against evolution.
Only a few years ago our textbooks claimed our universe began millions of years ago, this number continues to escalate and is now at about 14 billion years and even that is nothing more than a guess. The Bible claims God created Earth and man about 6,000 years ago and there is much more evidence supporting that. Unlike “scientist’s” millions over the past few years, this number remained unchanged for thousands of years. Truth does not change.

Studying quarks that form atoms, we are finding out that everything is made of energy waves (sound waves, light waves, micro waves, etc.) Matter is not actually solid, but a huge amount of energy waves that work in perfect unison. When we speak, we create waves. Sound waves can be powerful enough to disrupt solid matter, such as glass. The Bible teaches that God SPOKE everything into existence. He created energy waves, then arranged them perfectly to form (the Big Bang!). He then created man out of mud (which is in a way what evolutionists teach, minus God, the Creator).

If you are set on believing something, search and study it out. Don’t accept something blindly, just because it sounds good.
I heard there are animals called lemmings that supposedly follow their “leader” to their doom. I have seen caterpillars walking on a rim of a plate, each one following the one in front, until they die of exhaustion. We, humans, are much like that. We pick someone and follow them, regardless of their validity, then we get so comfortable (maybe even proud) in our way that even if we see evidence that this person is wrong, we refuse to get on the right path. There are consequences to everything...
There, you have just proven yourself to be a troll.

I find it much more satisfying to say "Science cannot answer this yet, but that doesn't mean it won't" instead of "This is sooo complex, God must have done it". If all scientists were thinking like you, nobody would have bothered researching these.

You also admitted that it takes some amount of blind faith to be believing in God... Interesting.
 

blade740

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Only a few years ago our textbooks claimed our universe began millions of years ago, this number continues to escalate and is now at about 14 billion years and even that is nothing more than a guess. The Bible claims God created Earth and man about 6,000 years ago and there is much more evidence supporting that. Unlike “scientist’s” millions over the past few years, this number remained unchanged for thousands of years. Truth does not change.
This is how science works. We have no way of knowing what actually happened at the beginning of the universe. All we have are some old books (written by people who also had no way of knowing what actually happened) and scientific analysis. The truth doesn't change, but since we don't know the truth, all we can do is make an educated guess according to the evidence we have. When more evidence shows up, the theory is changed to better fit it.

What evidence is there (besides the bible, which is a book written by men, and is in no way a credible source) that God created the Earth 6000 years ago?


Studying quarks that form atoms, we are finding out that everything is made of energy waves (sound waves, light waves, micro waves, etc.) Matter is not actually solid, but a huge amount of energy waves that work in perfect unison. When we speak, we create waves. Sound waves can be powerful enough to disrupt solid matter, such as glass. The Bible teaches that God SPOKE everything into existence. He created energy waves, then arranged them perfectly to form (the Big Bang!). He then created man out of mud (which is in a way what evolutionists teach, minus God, the Creator).
I'm not sure if this paragraph is a joke or what. You're saying that because everything is made of energy waves, the most plausible solution is that God spoke, creating sound waves, which arranged to create everything there is today. Isn't the idea that the whole earth was created from sound waves even more ridiculous than evolution?

If you are set on believing something, search and study it out. Don’t accept something blindly, just because it sounds good.
I heard there are animals called lemmings that supposedly follow their “leader” to their doom. I have seen caterpillars walking on a rim of a plate, each one following the one in front, until they die of exhaustion. We, humans, are much like that. We pick someone and follow them, regardless of their validity, then we get so comfortable (maybe even proud) in our way that even if we see evidence that this person is wrong, we refuse to get on the right path. There are consequences to everything...
Why don't you read this paragraph again, but imagine that I'm saying these words to you.
 
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I shan't really go into the argument because I find it a huge waste of time. But I'd just like to say this:

Science is supported by physical evidence and experiments and observations. We don't simply believe in something because some group tells us it is so, we understand reality from observations we can make around us. And fans of science can prove what they believe.

Religious fanatics (or simply, theists) on the other hand, like to debate about about something for which there is absolutely no basis or evidence. They base their beliefs on books which tell them things like "the sun orbits around the earth" and the "moon is higher than the stars". People who are so easily fooled would believe just about anything. You just have feed them with enough lies and extraordinary "evidence".

And this is why you can't argue about religion. Because no matter what you use, evidence for evolution, evidence for the big bang, the fallacies of the Turin Shroud, or even passages from the Bible/Qur'an, they will make stuff up in defence of their beliefs and give a lot of guesses.

Let them see for themselves, that only the Flying Spaghetti Monster is Lord the true God and only His Noodly Appendage will save you from boiling in hot sauce. May you find the true way, the Pastafarian way of life, because he who follows the way of the FSM shall live forever and ever even after death.

Ramen.
 
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desertbear: I like your posts, you've got a nice balanced and accepting attitude towards other religions. I can also say that about all Buddhists I know irl, so it's definitely got something to do with Buddhism.

And I believe that a religion which preaches that other religions are inherently wrong is missing the point of religion.

I'd just say that Buddhism is very different from most other religions and, depending on which brand you're practising, is more of a philosophy. To a Christian, the whole point is that they are right and you're wrong and you will BURN IN HELL...

And this is why you can't argue about religion. Because no matter what you use, evidence for evolution, evidence for the big bang, the fallacies of the Turin Shroud, or even passages from the Bible/Qur'an, they will make stuff up in defence of their beliefs and give a lot of guesses.
I know what you're saying, but not all religious people are like that. Some are just unaware of all the evidence and logical arguments (because their parents did a great job protecting them from such evil things) and haven't ever seriously considered that they could be wrong. These open-minded people are of course a small minority of all religious people, but they are probably more quiet than the fundamentalist fanatics and there could be many of them lurking.

And even if online debates make very few people convert, they aren't a complete waste of time. I'd like to understand why religious people are religious and how did they choose which religion to follow, and these threads have definitely shed some light to it.
 

Kirjava

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Only a few years ago our textbooks claimed our universe began millions of years ago, this number continues to escalate and is now at about 14 billion years and even that is nothing more than a guess. The Bible claims God created Earth and man about 6,000 years ago and there is much more evidence supporting that. Unlike “scientist’s” millions over the past few years, this number remained unchanged for thousands of years. Truth does not change.

Heh, I didn't see this. Why are you guys even bothering?

Oh, to make fun of his absurdities. Right.
 
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Only a few years ago our textbooks claimed our universe began millions of years ago, this number continues to escalate and is now at about 14 billion years and even that is nothing more than a guess. The Bible claims God created Earth and man about 6,000 years ago and there is much more evidence supporting that. Unlike “scientist’s” millions over the past few years, this number remained unchanged for thousands of years. Truth does not change.

Heh, I didn't see this. Why are you guys even bothering?

Oh, to make fun of his absurdities. Right.
Sometimes it is hard to distinguish a troll from a non-troll at debates like this.
 
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There, you have just proven yourself to be a troll.
Please, state your definition of a troll.

You also admitted that it takes some amount of blind faith to be believing in God... Interesting.
Absolutely. God does not advertise His existence with big banners and flashing lights. He wants to see what we are like when we think no one is watching, when we are honest. In a way how those who usually speed in their cars slow down when there is a police around, we would be much different (fake) people, if we could see someone like God looking over our shoulder.
 
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There, you have just proven yourself to be a troll.
Please, state your definition of a troll.
This:
You also admitted that it takes some amount of blind faith to be believing in God... Interesting.
Absolutely. God does not advertise His existence with big banners and flashing lights. He wants to see what we are like when we think no one is watching, when we are honest. In a way how those who usually speed in their cars slow down when there is a police around, we would be much different (fake) people, if we could see someone like God looking over our shoulder.
 
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