Religion thread... with a catch

[nitrocan]

An example of God's approval of rape in war time can be shown by

"1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city"(Zechariah 14:1-2 KJV).

This is by no means God's approval of rape. This simply speaks a prophecy of what will happen to Jerusalem.

I am wondering how the men who were to invade Jerusalem felt about raping the women of Jerusalem after reading this verse.

 

[BrunoAD]

The law was never replaced.

“ye are not under the law, but under grace.” (Romans 6:14)

“But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.” (Galatians 3:23)

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.” (Galatians 5:18)

 

[qqwref]

Also, pure Christianity is not exactly a religion. It is a relationship between Jesus and His followers. In a religion you do rituals because you have to, or it gets you something.

Uh, no. Christianity is definitely a religion. You can't distance yourself from everyone else just because you think they're all doing things because they have to (they're not).

Ever since the New Covenant came into effect, we are not under the [Old Testament] law anymore.

If you've thrown off the OT's morals and law, why do Christians quote the OT? Either you do have to follow those laws (then do so) or you don't (then ignore the OT's moralistic/legalistic teachings because they are outdated). Choose one and only one.


Incidentally, KJV Matthew 5:17 says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Was Jesus wrong about this?

 

[chowmein]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB3g6mXLEKk&feature=player_embedded

"yes."
"no."
"CORRECT!"

 

[chowmein]

o and also i found this one amusing...

http://www.blameitonthevoices.com/2010/04/is-god-really-fake.html

 

[Feryll]

Spoiler

 

[desertbear]

I like the discussion in this thread. Using sources and citing them is (ironically enough) not used very often in religious debates. I am glad to see we are using our resources.

The truth is, while we can argue all we want about religion, the end result is the same. But I am not saying we should stop this debate, it is very good to debate and question another's beliefs as well as your own. However, even as a practicing Buddhist, I would say there is no one best religion for every single person in the world. Almost all religion expresses great truth along with a call for compassion. Take your pick of religion, but as long as you can honestly say that you believe in it fully and that you are working towards becoming a better person because of it, I say that you are part of a good religion.

I'd be hard pressed to say any religion is "wrong". And I believe that a religion which preaches that other religions are inherently wrong is missing the point of religion. As a Buddhist, I can say there is much good in every religion that I can learn from. Christians, I have great respect for the large quantity of social work you perform. Muslims, I have great respect for the reverence with which you hold your religious practices as well as your discipline regarding religious practices. Jews, I have great respect for the depth of which you analyze your own scholarly works. Hindus, I have great respect for your reverent worship and love for meditation. Jainists, I have great respect for your devotion to the practice of ahimsa.

We are all beautiful people. Difference in religions is much like taking different roads/paths to the same destination.

Amitabha!
-Jeff

 

[Tyson]

Problem...

"Take your pick of religion, but as long as you can honestly say that you believe in it fully and that you are working towards becoming a better person because of it, I say that you are part of a good religion."

Working towards becoming a better person? The problem with religion is that it changes the way people define what it means to be a better person.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Tiller

Scott Roeder honestly believes that he is being a better person by murdering George Tiller. So religion is still okay here? I don't think it's okay for us to enforce morals on other people if the morals are based on subjective things with no evidence.

 

[desertbear]

Okay. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't define that well enough. You're right, some people do believe being a better person is murdering, raping, etc. I'll rephrase that to "as long as you can honestly say that you believe in it fully and that you are working towards loving all and making the world a more peaceful place".

 

[Tyson]

Okay. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't define that well enough. You're right, some people do believe being a better person is murdering, raping, etc. I'll rephrase that to "as long as you can honestly say that you believe in it fully and that you are working towards loving all and making the world a more peaceful place".

That doesn't work. Roeder believed he was making the world a more peaceful place by killing Dr. Tiller as killing Dr. Tiller would prevent him from performing abortions.

Why does it only matter if you believe in it? I think I'm showing you here that allowing people to believe whatever they want and allowing them to act on those beliefs if they are genuine can lead to some pretty unpleasant things. If you're going to act on something, shouldn't it be supported by evidence?

Unless... you want to claim to Christianity is a bad religion because of this. In which case, I have no problem with that. Though I would say I know of some bad examples from Buddhists too.

 

[BrunoAD]

If you've thrown off the OT's morals and law, why do Christians quote the OT? Either you do have to follow those laws (then do so) or you don't (then ignore the OT's moralistic/legalistic teachings because they are outdated). Choose one and only one.
Incidentally, KJV Matthew 5:17 says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Was Jesus wrong about this?

Jesus was never wrong on anything, He IS the Truth.
We are not to throw out the Old Testament, or its laws. There is much benefit to heeding its wisdom. For example, I did not understand why God tells us that certain foods like pork, shellfish, catfish, etc. are unhealthy for us. I loved these foods, so after I started reading the Bible in 2003, I studied this out. (I do work in research and it is also my hobby.) I found out that God sorted out animal food according to its health benefits to us, LONG before man had the science to know this. Most “unclean” animals are scavengers and eat and store in their bodies poisons that are around us. God made these animals for a different purpose than to be used as human food. For example look at a pig. It’s digestive system is much different from a cow (a clean animal). Pig eats just about anything, including feces and rotting flesh, then its short digestive system pulls out poisons and stores them in fat and muscles. They can get so clogged up with toxins that even their excretory system is made differently to keep them safe. I suggest studying this out. It is AMAZING how intricately everything is made.

There is nothing wrong with the Old Testament. Its main purpose is to point to Christ, but also to show us what is right and what is wrong, to help us live a long, healthy and prosperous life Without clear guidelines, we do whatever we feel like doing and then justify it to make it look like we did right. Once we receive the Holy Spirit, we have a proper guide to tell us what is good, thus the law becomes redundant.

 

[BrunoAD]

Difference in religions is much like taking different roads/paths to the same destination.

But HOW do you know for sure all these paths lead to the same destination? What if there really is ONLY ONE way and we miss it, because we were too _______________ (lazy, selfish, proud, ignorant, fill in the blank)?

They (makes me wonder who "they" are) say that all roads lead to Rome. If that was so, why bother looking at a map?? Just pick a road that appears most convenient and start going - just hope you don't run out of time, before you get there.

What I am trying to get across is this: SEEK after the Truth, before it is too late!

 

[nitrocan]

If you've thrown off the OT's morals and law, why do Christians quote the OT? Either you do have to follow those laws (then do so) or you don't (then ignore the OT's moralistic/legalistic teachings because they are outdated). Choose one and only one.
Incidentally, KJV Matthew 5:17 says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Was Jesus wrong about this?

Jesus was never wrong on anything, He IS the Truth.
We are not to throw out the Old Testament, or its laws. There is much benefit to heeding its wisdom. For example, I did not understand why God tells us that certain foods like pork, shellfish, catfish, etc. are unhealthy for us. I loved these foods, so after I started reading the Bible in 2003, I studied this out. (I do work in research and it is also my hobby.) I found out that God sorted out animal food according to its health benefits to us, LONG before man had the science to know this. Most “unclean” animals are scavengers and eat and store in their bodies poisons that are around us. God made these animals for a different purpose than to be used as human food. For example look at a pig. It’s digestive system is much different from a cow (a clean animal). Pig eats just about anything, including feces and rotting flesh, then its short digestive system pulls out poisons and stores them in fat and muscles. They can get so clogged up with toxins that even their excretory system is made differently to keep them safe. I suggest studying this out. It is AMAZING how intricately everything is made.

There is nothing wrong with the Old Testament. Its main purpose is to point to Christ, but also to show us what is right and what is wrong, to help us live a long, healthy and prosperous life Without clear guidelines, we do whatever we feel like doing and then justify it to make it look like we did right. Once we receive the Holy Spirit, we have a proper guide to tell us what is good, thus the law becomes redundant.

Yes, evolution is indeed an amazing thing.

 

[qqwref]

If you've thrown off the OT's morals and law, why do Christians quote the OT? Either you do have to follow those laws (then do so) or you don't (then ignore the OT's moralistic/legalistic teachings because they are outdated). Choose one and only one.
Incidentally, KJV Matthew 5:17 says "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Was Jesus wrong about this?

Jesus was never wrong on anything, He IS the Truth.
[...]
There is nothing wrong with the Old Testament.

OK. So you believe it's acceptable to keep slaves, proper to stone (i.e. kill) children who disobey their parents, correct to have a rape victim marry a rapist, and right to kill adulterers and women who are not virgins when they marry?

 

[desertbear]

Okay. I'm sorry, I guess I didn't define that well enough. You're right, some people do believe being a better person is murdering, raping, etc. I'll rephrase that to "as long as you can honestly say that you believe in it fully and that you are working towards loving all and making the world a more peaceful place".

That doesn't work. Roeder believed he was making the world a more peaceful place by killing Dr. Tiller as killing Dr. Tiller would prevent him from performing abortions.

Why does it only matter if you believe in it? I think I'm showing you here that allowing people to believe whatever they want and allowing them to act on those beliefs if they are genuine can lead to some pretty unpleasant things. If you're going to act on something, shouldn't it be supported by evidence?

Unless... you want to claim to Christianity is a bad religion because of this. In which case, I have no problem with that. Though I would say I know of some bad examples from Buddhists too.

Organized religion can be dangerous. I understand your point. But I cannot control what every Buddhist does, or what every Christian does. I can only control myself. This is a universally applicable truth.

As much as I wish people didn't believe in some of the things they did, to be human is to be able to freely choose and believe. That is why I say it is important to believe in what you follow. To follow a religion out of fear is insecurity.

What I mean mostly is that most religions produce much more good results than bad. And usually when it's a bad result, it's a misinterpretation. The religion itself is hard pressed to control individual interpretations. If the man who killed the abortion doctor had really known the word of God, he would know that Jesus and his religion say that the ends do not justify the means. Even if he thinks in this situation, the kill is self-defense, this is his problem. Is it fueled by Christianity? Partially, but also mainly by fanaticism and zeal. There are always members of groups who perform extreme actions, ones that don't define the group itself. Yes, some tragic things have happened as a result of Christianity, but also, many beautiful and wonderful things. Even if your morality is proportionalism, to sacrifice all the good social work and altruism that Christianity has performed for a few goof-ups doesn't seem entirely proportional.

As for Buddhism, yes, there are examples. But there are also examples in every institution. The Buddha never claimed that his followers would be perfect at first. In the Dhammapada the Buddha says "Do not concern yourself with the faults of others, or what they have or haven't done. Concern yourself with what you yourself have or haven't done". I cannot answer for these people flaws. I can only learn from them.

I said that all of this applies to a good religion. Not every person in a good religion is a good person.

But I have enjoyed this conversation

Amitabha,
Jeff

 

[Mastersonian]

I know this was a few pages back, but just so everyone knows, the Hebrew(or greek, I forget) word for circle is also the hebrew(again, maybe greek) word for sphere.

 

[irontwig]

Jesus was never wrong on anything, He IS the Truth.

Two words: mustard seed.

 

[BrunoAD]

evolution is indeed an amazing thing.

It takes an immense amount of blind faith to believe in evolution, much more than it takes to believe that God created everything. There is so much going against evolution, if you truly study it. I am talking about MACRO evolution, not micro evolution, which is basically adaptation. Evolution teaches such claims as "Nothing exploded and here we are!", or “we evolved from mud by pure chance”.
Consider the vastness and complexity of our universe, structure of a cell, intricacies of DNA, an atom, or a quark. These are so unbelievably complex and perfect that it would be a more intelligent statement to say that a pile of rubble evolved into a functioning watch, or a jumbo jet over billions of years, than what some scientists are claiming about the Big Bang and macro evolution. I say SOME, as I work in the science field and research, and am amazed just how many scientists are admitting that those claims cannot be true, as more evidence is coming up against evolution.
Only a few years ago our textbooks claimed our universe began millions of years ago, this number continues to escalate and is now at about 14 billion years and even that is nothing more than a guess. The Bible claims God created Earth and man about 6,000 years ago and there is much more evidence supporting that. Unlike “scientist’s” millions over the past few years, this number remained unchanged for thousands of years. Truth does not change.

Studying quarks that form atoms, we are finding out that everything is made of energy waves (sound waves, light waves, micro waves, etc.) Matter is not actually solid, but a huge amount of energy waves that work in perfect unison. When we speak, we create waves. Sound waves can be powerful enough to disrupt solid matter, such as glass. The Bible teaches that God SPOKE everything into existence. He created energy waves, then arranged them perfectly to form (the Big Bang!). He then created man out of mud (which is in a way what evolutionists teach, minus God, the Creator).

If you are set on believing something, search and study it out. Don’t accept something blindly, just because it sounds good.
I heard there are animals called lemmings that supposedly follow their “leader” to their doom. I have seen caterpillars walking on a rim of a plate, each one following the one in front, until they die of exhaustion. We, humans, are much like that. We pick someone and follow them, regardless of their validity, then we get so comfortable (maybe even proud) in our way that even if we see evidence that this person is wrong, we refuse to get on the right path. There are consequences to everything...

 

[BrunoAD]

Two words: mustard seed.

You are correct, those are indeed two words.

 

[Escher]

I heard there are animals called lemmings that supposedly follow their “leader” to their doom.

I don't particularly care to enter into this discussion, but that's actually a myth created by a scene in a film made by Disney (I think). They simply herded the lemmings off the cliffs and recorded the result, claiming they were suicidal.
Lemmings don't throw themselves to their dooms in search for food (or their 'leader')!