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Religion thread... with a catch

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Tyson

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Isn't the idea that the whole earth was created from sound waves even more ridiculous than evolution?

Yes it is. It would take much more than just sound waves to create something as amazing as we have here.

Has anyone even bothered to point out that sound waves don't exist without a medium? As in, even if there was a god and he had a voice and spoke words, there would no sound and he couldn't do anything?

Because he has to create air first. And I don't think he did that until about day 4.
 

desertbear

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"This I'm going to slam you on. Really? Is this fair? So whenever someone does something good in the name of Allah, it's Islam. But when someone does something bad in the name of Allah, it's a misinterpretation?"

You can check my quote, I said usually. Not whenever. That would be a huge argument against basic logic. And yes, I know I'm pushing normal logic already. I have no authority to say what is the correct interpretation or not. But you can see that in almost all of these situations, the person who committed the offense is in direct opposition to the majority of the religion's followers. If the whole religion or the majority is in agreement with this heinous crime, I would call it a bad religion. But that is my personal opinion, it only goes so far.

What I mean in this point also goes along with a few of my others that you addressed. To be Scottish is genetic, and based on heritage. No Scotsman needs to conform to a specific set of beliefs and/or standards. The only true criteria for being a Scotsman is to have family of Scottish heritage. Religion however, is very different. There are specific catechisms/doctrines of faith that are supposed to be accepted for you to be classified as a member of a religion. One such in Christianity is that direct abortion is wrong. But another is that the ends don't justify the means. And another is that intended and premeditated murder is wrong. Even if the man did not believe that he fell into the last category (planning this as a "murder") he still has to reconcile the first and second principles. Now, many normal people would say pick one or the other. But that isn't the teaching of Christianity. Christianity has out rightly rejected proportionalism throughout history. You cannot take one over the other because you think it's more important. You also cannot say, "well the ends justify the means here in this specific circumstance". That is situation based ethics, which has also been condemned by Christianity. Christianity is a belief system, and consequently, you must hold certain beliefs for it. So I am saying that if this man claims to be Christian, his act was most certainly not Christian for those reasons.

I do not claim to be an authority on Christianity. This is why I am taking all of my points from AUTHORITIES in the Christian faith. Namely, the Bible, the living word of God, and the foundations and catechisms of Christianity itself. The second, I suppose could be rejected, because you could say that only what Jesus has directly said matters. But even Jesus taught against the philosophies this man used to "justify" his decision. And to be Christian is to follow Christ, yes? So when you do not follow Christ, you are not Christian. This is all I mean.

I understand your point about it being the doctor's problem. This is very valid. I did not phrase what I meant very well. I meant that it is this individual's problem concerning his Christianity, not Christianity's problem. They can't control every individuals interpretation or opinion. They can try to change his opinion back for the better, but people in general aren't easily swayed. But yes, you're correct in saying it's the doctor's problem now because of the extremist and falsely "justified" decision of this man. I was just referring to the fact that Christianity as an institution is hard pressed to control each and every interpretation. They try their best to lead individuals to their doctrines, but people can be stubborn.

"Is it fueled by Christianity? Partially, but also mainly by fanaticism and zeal.

Is there any difference?"

Yes. Well, I suppose I could replace fanaticism and zeal with extremism. Regardless, my point is that Christianity preaches humility, reserve, and non-violence. Specific institutions within Christianity may act differently, so here I must give you that point. But I am talking about Christ himself, and his teachings. Mother Teresa, a wonderful woman of Christianity, I would say is not fanatical or extreme. She practiced with humility, and sought not to hurt a single being. This man would be the exact opposite; wishing to be praised for his actions, as well as taking only parts of the Christian law as specifically important. Jesus had people like this in his own time, and he preached against them; the Pharisees.

So if you mean specific preachers/institutions of Christianity, then yes, I would absolutely agree. But I just meant the most basic and fundamental form of Christianity; the life and teachings of Christ himself.

I do enjoy talking about this, and I have great respect that you aren't afraid to state what you believe and think. We have lost many people like you in the world.

(I also have respect because I was raised Christian. I do not consider how I was raised to be entirely Christian though. This is why I only cite catechism and the Bible as my sources, not individuals. Also, I used to hold the exact opinions you do. I was almost the same. I'm not saying it's bad. It's just as valid as any other belief system. I'm Buddhist now, but I can see where you are coming from, for I used to feel entirely the same)

Amitabha,
Jeff
 

qqwref

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Specific institutions within Christianity may act differently, so here I must give you that point. But I am talking about Christ himself, and his teachings.
It would be nice if Christianity itself always followed Christ's teachings. Unfortunately they diverged at a relatively early point in Church history.

Mother Teresa, a wonderful woman of Christianity, I would say is not fanatical or extreme. She practiced with humility, and sought not to hurt a single being.
Hmm, careful. I've heard she and her organization were not nearly as amazing as popular opinion would have it.
 

Kirjava

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blade740

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But you can see that in almost all of these situations, the person who committed the offense is in direct opposition to the majority of the religion's followers. If the whole religion or the majority is in agreement with this heinous crime, I would call it a bad religion.

I do not claim to be an authority on Christianity. This is why I am taking all of my points from AUTHORITIES in the Christian faith. Namely, the Bible, the living word of God, and the foundations and catechisms of Christianity itself.

First of all, these are a bit contradictory. The bible (the infallible living word of God) contains many verses that were simply disregarded at some point. In fact, many verses in the bible (including GOD'S OWN ACTIONS) are examples of what you'd probably call "heinous crimes". Any religion that calls for death as a punishment as much as the bible does is what I'd call a "bad religion"

There are specific catechisms/doctrines of faith that are supposed to be accepted for you to be classified as a member of a religion. One such in Christianity is that direct abortion is wrong. But another is that the ends don't justify the means.

Don't confuse things your parents told you with actual tenets of the Christian faith. Did the ends justify the means when God killed most of the life on earth because people weren't listening to him?

This man would be the exact opposite; wishing to be praised for his actions, as well as taking only parts of the Christian law as specifically important.

That has nothing to do with the example given. It seems that religious zealots like this seek recognition for their actions only from God (I assume most know that their fellow man would condemn such actions)
 

BrunoAD

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Has anyone even bothered to point out that sound waves don't exist without a medium? As in, even if there was a god and he had a voice and spoke words, there would no sound and he couldn't do anything?

Because he has to create air first. And I don't think he did that until about day 4.
Energy waves do not need a medium. Light waves as well as other waves travel through vacuum without a problem.
 

BrunoAD

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It would be nice if Christianity itself always followed Christ's teachings. Unfortunately they diverged at a relatively early point in Church history.

Very true. There are too many "Christian" cults that made their own religions which suit them. They bring shame and a bad name to Jesus Christ and all He stands for. Bible calls them "Wolves in sheep's clothing".

Very few choose to trust and follow Jesus Christ's teachings.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)
 

BrunoAD

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There, you have just proven yourself to be a troll.

Please, state your definition of a troll.
This:
You also admitted that it takes some amount of blind faith to be believing in God... Interesting.

Absolutely. God does not advertise His existence with big banners and flashing lights. He wants to see what we are like when we think no one is watching, when we are honest. In a way how those who usually speed in their cars slow down when there is a police around, we would be much different (fake) people, if we could see someone like God looking over our shoulder.

nitrocan, perhaps you misunderstood my question. I'll rephrase:
In your own words, define trolling.
 

qazefth

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Lalala...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCgj6p3JTLg

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِى الدِّينِ

(There is no compulsion in religion), meaning, "Do not force anyone to become Muslim, for Islam is plain and clear, and its proofs and evidence are plain and clear. Therefore, there is no need to force anyone to embrace Islam. Rather, whoever Allah directs to Islam, opens his heart for it and enlightens his mind, will embrace Islam with certainty. Whoever Allah blinds his heart and seals his hearing and sight, then he will not benefit from being forced to embrace Islam.''

لاَ إِكْرَاهَ فِى الدِّينِ قَد تَّبَيَّنَ الرُّشْدُ مِنَ الْغَيِّ

(There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path.)'

Abu Dawud and An-Nasa'i also recorded this Hadith. As for the Hadith that Imam Ahmad recorded, in which Anas said that the Messenger of Allah said to a man, ("Embrace Islam.'' The man said, "I dislike it.'' The Prophet said, "Even if you dislike it.'')

First, this is an authentic Hadith, with only three narrators between Imam Ahmad and the Prophet . However, it is not relevant to the subject under discussion, for the Prophet did not force that man to become Muslim. The Prophet merely invited this man to become Muslim, and he replied that he does not find himself eager to become Muslim. The Prophet said to the man that even though he dislikes embracing Islam, he should still embrace it, `for Allah will grant you sincerity and true intent.'

(2:256)

Good Night, zzz
 
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Joël

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I watched about 35 or so minutes of it, but it's all the same type of reasoning that my religious (christain) family members use, but they use the same lines of reasoning for different faiths.

Basically they act as if the existence of God/Allah is somehow as obvious as the sun, and if you don't agree you don't contemplate, you are not rational or you have no intelligence. This type of reasoning "The existence of God/Allah is clear if you look at creation and contemplate", implying that if you don't 'get it' you haven't been contemplating enough, is being repeated quite a few times. It's funny how easily he dismisses other religions... And how people of other faiths also dismiss other religions with 1 paragraph or less. I've seen this happen so many times. Also cool how he emphasises the monotheistic nature of Islam and how that's all unique and how that also proves God/Allah. In my experience Christians also emphasise one special property about their faith (How Jesus died for our sins) and use it to prove how unique their religion is, and how that somehow means they must be right.

It all sounds like a bunch of fairy tales to me.
 
N

nitrocan

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Lalala...
...

You keep avoiding but I'll put them in front of you anyway:

Bakara 217:
And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.


Maide 101/102:
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Quran is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
So now, you can't ask any questions. You might convert or something.

Bakara 106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

Nahl 101:
When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them know not.

But also:

Fatır 43:
But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).

Fetih 23:
(Such has been) the practice (approved) of Allah already in the past: no change wilt thou find in the practice (approved) of Allah.
You also quoted that there is no compulsion in religion, so that nobody should force someone to accept Islam. I will quote, yet again:

Tövbe 5:
But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the polytheists wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.
 

qazefth

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Bakara 217:
And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
This verse is for the Muslims. Those who quits Islam, or convert to other religion, and died in the religion other than Islam, will be companions of the Hell Fire.
Maide 101/102:
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Quran is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.

That is not what it meant by the Verse.
Lets say, for example, in this forum itself. It was when a lots of people keep asking what is the best Hybrid Cube, the best cube, etc. People keep replying the same thing over and over again. At first it was ok, but after awhile, people get annoyed. And if someone ask you a question, and you explained the answer clearly, then he ask why, how, when, over and over again even though you have explained the bits to him. Can you control you anger and patience? If yes, MasyaAllah. And what it was meant by "cause you trouble", if someone or teacher is angry at you, will you be in trouble?

Fatır 43:
But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).

Do you know what Sunnatullah is? The qoute from Surah Fatir is saying different things from the Surah Al-Baqarah.

And, answer this honestly, do you read the Quran Text (arabic)? Or you just read the translation? In order to completely understand the Quran, first you need to know Arabic. Not the Arabic being spoken by the Arabs from Saudi or Egypt or Yemen or Morocco. But the Ummi Arabic (the Original, like the one in the Quran). The Arabs use their local slang to communicate each other. And that is only half way to understanding the Quran completely. You need to refer to the Hadith. Refer to the Sirah (history) Of Prophet Muhammad.

And to prove that you didn't read the Quran Text, there is no such thing as Tövbe. It is written as Tawbah توبة. You should have known better.

And to answer you last quote, we did not slay people. The word Slay means war. War against the polytheists(Musyrikin Of Makkah). If you have read the Sirah, then you will know what they have done.

And for those who repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them, : for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.



Internet debate will last long, so, I don't really want to waste my time here debating with you. Because Allah will only give guidance for those He wants(for those who wants to find Allah, the truth).

And by trying to find the mistakes in the Quran, why don't you try to find mistakes in you holy Book or atleast convince other people that yours is true. It will take you forever to find the mistakes in the Quran

P/S MasyaAllah brother forgotten, beautiful link. I never knew about the Mathematic Calculations found in the Quran. MasyaAllah.

End my post, may Allah guide for those who seek for the truth.

Wallahu'alam.
 
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nitrocan

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Bakara 217:
And if any of you turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.
This verse is for the Muslims. Those who quits Islam, or convert to other religion, and died in the religion other than Islam, will be companions of the Hell Fire.

So that makes it okay?

Maide 101/102:
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Quran is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.

Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
That is not what it meant by the Verse.
Lets say, for example, in this forum itself. It was when a lots of people keep asking what is the best Hybrid Cube, the best cube, etc. People keep replying the same thing over and over again. At first it was ok, but after awhile, people get annoyed. And if someone ask you a question, and you explained the answer clearly, then he ask why, how, when, over and over again even though you have explained the bits to him. Can you control you anger and patience? If yes, MasyaAllah. And what it was meant by "cause you trouble", if someone or teacher is angry at you, will you be in trouble?
Please read that verse again. You're just making things up to make it sound right.
Fatır 43:
But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing): no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing).
Do you know what Sunnatullah is? The qoute from Surah Fatir is saying different things from the Surah Al-Baqarah.

And, answer this honestly, do you read the Quran Text (arabic)? Or you just read the translation? In order to completely understand the Quran, first you need to know Arabic. Not the Arabic being spoken by the Arabs from Saudi or Egypt or Yemen or Morocco. But the Ummi Arabic (the Original, like the one in the Quran). The Arabs use their local slang to communicate each other. And that is only half way to understanding the Quran completely. You need to refer to the Hadith. Refer to the Sirah (history) Of Prophet Muhammad.

And to prove that you didn't read the Quran Text, there is no such thing as Tövbe. It is written as Tawbah توبة. You should have known better.

And to answer you last quote, we did not slay people. The word Slay means war. War against the polytheists(Musyrikin Of Makkah). If you have read the Sirah, then you will know what they have done.

And for those who repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them, : for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful.



Internet debate will last long, so, I don't really want to waste my time here debating with you. Because Allah will only give guidance for those He wants(for those who wants to find Allah, the truth).

And by trying to find the mistakes in the Quran, why don't you try to find mistakes in you holy Book or atleast convince other people that yours is true. It will take you forever to find the mistakes in the Quran

P/S MasyaAllah brother forgotten, beautiful link. I never knew about the Mathematic Calculations found in the Quran. MasyaAllah.

End my post, may Allah guide for those who seek for the truth.

Wallahu'alam.
:D

Tövbe is "tawbah" in Turkish. Why would you assume that I didn't read it from that? I use http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp for my translations.

AND unfortunately for you, the direct translation says KILL the polytheists.

So it's you that should get back to reading the Quran once more.


EDIT: I read the thing written in the 1+1=2 link. Those will only please someone who is already a muslim. For example the one with the atmosphere being formed of 7 layers. That is wrong. The atmosphere has 5 distinct layers.

I won't go into explaining them all since I've done it too many times with other people.
 
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shelley

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