Possible 2011 WCA Regulations Changes

[masterofthebass]

When schedules aren't based on percentage of people who have ever competed in an event, and instead on how many people show up, I think so.

 

[Stefan]

When schedules aren't based on percentage of people who have ever competed in an event, and instead on how many people show up, I think so.

Well, many more people show up for 5x5x5 than for feet. Top 3:

115, 'USNationals2010'
111, 'Euro2010'
101, 'WC2009'
vs
22, 'Euro2010'
21, 'WC2009'
20, 'HungarianOpen2009'

But anyway... I don't think it's the fast people who take the most time, but the slow people. So let's compare the *slowest* 30 of each (fair, right?):

5x5x5) 8:08.85 to 18:48.00
Feet) 5:41.23 to 15:30.00 (and that's an exception, next fastest is 9:39.52 already)

 

[Erik]

I'm not questionning the suggestion, I'm just questionning why it is made in a thread called "Possible 2011 WCA Regulations Changes", because this basically doesnt make any sense.

I have no problems with the current displays and batteries. Of course I would prefer cheaper versions, but I cannot see how anyone of us would be able to realise that. Also I prefer the batteries to having cables all over the stages.

The annual new regulations thread is the time of the year we think about how to improve the way things are going, in the process I thought of this to help improving the things they are now. The remark was more on-topic than most posts around this forum.

Back to the issue:
We have the luxury in Germany that batteries are refunded sometimes. For others this isn't the case, so for them the high costs can be a big problem.
http://worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=915&sid=e4a0ce8d34a116181c72596deb1b6358
Here is the WCA-forum discussion about the displays. I've been told (Arnaud?) that they don't have wires, but run on normal AA batteries.
Still there is indeed not much we can do, Thailand is not very nearby.

Certificates: I must've misunderstood the regulations then, can happen if English isn't your mother-tongue.

To Stefan: don't the slowest times say something about the organizers too? I mean the slowest 3x3 times are also getting me sleepy...Time limits can influence a lot. 5x5 mostly has (very) strict time limits nowadays.

 

[Radu]

Originally Posted by pablobaluba View Post
-MasterMagic - it's plain boring and just a matter of skill.

Uh... what?! So are *all* events.

I said "it's just a matter of skill.".
I consider that the NxNxN cubes, for example, are also a matter of thinking, not only skill and how fast you are. Maybe we have different definitions for the word "skill", but I guess you know what I meant.

 

[Stefan]

are also a matter of thinking, not only skill and how fast you are.

Thinking is a skill.

I knew what you meant, but skill is one of my favorite words (I hate "gifted"... "skilled" is so much better) and I don't like to see it misrepresented.

 

[da25centz]

I said "it's just a matter of skill.".
I consider that the NxNxN cubes, for example, are also a matter of thinking, not only skill and how fast you are. Maybe we have different definitions for the word "skill", but I guess you know what I meant.

I think a better argument against Master Magic is that its nearly the exact same thing as magic, which could be said aout pretty much any cube shaped puzzle, except that magic and master magic only need to be learned once, then you just do the exact same thing as fast as humanly possible. I dont think two events are really needed to judge this, but i dont really take up much exstra time as they are usually done in the same tim slot in a comp. it doesnt really matter, I would just leave it alone

 

[qqwref]

- media love it, it makes cubing look like a sport where the impossible can be done. Not once have they made the association with circus, goofy or dirty. Only impressive.

I think as far as most people are concerned it is more of a sarcastic "they even do it with feet! LOL NERDS" than a reverential "OMG, they can do it with their feet... amazing... *bows down*".

EDIT: In the minesweeper community we know someone who has solved it with his feet, and we think it is a very silly thing to have tried

- its funny and gives a good laugh to watch people POP-ing or failing at PLL's, I never hear people laugh during other events...

I think people can laugh because (a) for the most part they don't care about the event as much as the others, and (b) it goes so slowly (in turns/sec) that it's hard to concentrate on it and easy to make mistakes.

 

[Holger]

I would like to see a cubing version of decathlon added to the events.

The event wouldn't take any time to hold at a competetion, since the results from the normal rounds could be used. For example participation in 4x4x4 would trigger a number of points in decathlon depending on the result.
It would give a nice way to measure and reward overall cubing skills.

It is not very likely to see this added in the 2011 regulations, but I think it can be added in 2012, if someone figure out a format and point system.

I think relays are a bad idea in general, since they require a lot of time and don't really add anything.

 

[Bryan]

The event wouldn't take any time to hold at a competetion, since the results from the normal rounds could be used. For example participation in 4x4x4 would trigger a number of points in decathlon depending on the result.
It would give a nice way to measure and reward overall cubing skills.

It is not very likely to see this added in the 2011 regulations, but I think it can be added in 2012, if someone figure out a format and point system.

It already exists: 6a)Awards, prizes or honours may be given to competitors according to the announcement of the competition.

I would think something like this wouldn't be in the regulations, because different places would weight things differently. But al you need to do is announce that the scores will be weighted a certain way and let people see the results.

 

[Holger]

It already exists: 6a)Awards, prizes or honours may be given to competitors according to the announcement of the competition.

You could use that argument against adding any events

I would think something like this wouldn't be in the regulations, because different places would weight things differently.

They would weigh things differently as long as there is no regulation for it. The scores should be given on the result and not on the placement, just like in athletic. For example 13.5 sec = 100 points, not 2. place = 100 points.

 

[Erik]

QQ:
About the media: no, hasn't been done once on me (and I know when I'm being ridiculed). The ZOMGZ NERD reactions are actually less than on normal cubing I'd say.

About the laugh: I find your reasons for possible laughter a bit weird... Why would someone laugh because they don't care about the event? Making mistakes is always funny (and sad at the same time).

 

[qqwref]

It already exists: 6a)Awards, prizes or honours may be given to competitors according to the announcement of the competition.

You could use that argument against adding any event

No, you can't. Your proposal was an "event" that doesn't require any new solves but just calculates a ranking based on how people perform in some set of the existing events. But that's not a real event, just a new ranking idea, similar to the things on the "Statistics" page on the WCA site. Bryan was pointing out that you have always been able to calculate your decathlon and give out prizes for it, if you want. It's not a bad idea, but it's not an event, and I wouldn't want to give an official WR for it any more than I'd want to give an official WR to the person with best all-events average sum, or the person with the most successes in one competition, or the oldest BLD solver.

It would be kinda nice to have some kind of objective weighting of how well you did in a competition, but unfortunately I think most competitions wouldn't have enough events to qualify, and it would be too hard to figure out a weighting that would make the same number of points equally hard to get in each part.

QQ:
About the media: no, hasn't been done once on me (and I know when I'm being ridiculed). The ZOMGZ NERD reactions are actually less than on normal cubing I'd say.

I don't think they would ridicule you to your face. But (at least in the news programs I've seen) even normal and BLD solvers get treated in a way that implies they are kind of a joke - someone who spends their time doing something crazy that amuses the viewers, not somebody who is incredibly skilled and amazing.

About the laugh: I find your reasons for possible laughter a bit weird... Why would someone laugh because they don't care about the event? Making mistakes is always funny (and sad at the same time).

If you really care about an event, and you make a big mistake, you will be annoyed, even angry. Your mistake could have cost you a good time or a good average. But if you don't care about an event, and you make a big mistake, you can laugh at yourself, because it doesn't matter to you.

 

[Erik]

QQ:
Media: so if they didn't ridicule in my face when did they do it then? In the articles? I've read them. And on both TV appearances they didn't ridicule me either. And since when is it automatically a joke when someone does something crazy? Most things like throwing cards or whatever is mostly appreciated more as skill than something to laugh at. Then again crazy stuff can be impressive and funny at the same time. What is so negative about this?
I really don't get what you are trying to prove here. I said media appreciate the skill of feet-solving and pointed out that in my experience this has always been the case. The 'evidence' if you like, where is the ridiculing?

Mistakes: mistakes can also be very funny even if you care about it, I remember numerous hilarious moments of me and others making mistakes at serious events.

 

[Holger]

No, you can't. Your proposal was an "event" that doesn't require any new solves but just calculates a ranking based on how people perform in some set of the existing events. But that's not a real event, just a new ranking idea, similar to the things on the "Statistics" page on the WCA site. Bryan was pointing out that you have always been able to calculate your decathlon and give out prizes for it, if you want.

I guess that you could call it a new ranking system, I see it as an event since it is something you can participate and compete in. In my opinion it doesn't make something less an event just because it only requires a calculator or the WCA score sheet.

It's not a bad idea, but it's not an event, and I wouldn't want to give an official WR for it any more than I'd want to give an official WR to the person with best all-events average sum, or the person with the most successes in one competition, or the oldest BLD solver.

I think this is where we actually disagree. I would like to have an official title and ranking to some kind of best overall cuber, you would not. I do realise that unless all events are added, it wouldn't give the actually best overall cuber. But i do believe that this would be a good approximation to the best overall cuber.

It would be kinda nice to have some kind of objective weighting of how well you did in a competition, but unfortunately I think most competitions wouldn't have enough events to qualify, ...

I do not have the copy of the WCA-database, but I would claim that at least 30% of the competition in 2010 had more than 10 events. And if not, the "event" could simply only contain 7 events and be called something differently.

I agree that it is very difficult to find a good scoring system that compares different types of events, but they did it in athletic. And as I said, I don't expect to see this in 2011.


Edit: I wondered if the reason you didn't like that i called decathlon an event, was because I as a Dane did not understand the term correctly.

I tried define: event, and among other things I got:

Each sport and discipline has at least one event. An event is defined by the IOC as “a competition in an Olympic sport or in one of its disciplines and resulting in a ranking, (which) gives rise to the award of medals and diplomas.

If I am right, that means that anything we choose to compete in would be an event, according to the definition.

I couldn't find any definition in the WCA regulations, but I just searched on "define".

 

[qqwref]

I really don't get what you are trying to prove here. I said media appreciate the skill of feet-solving and pointed out that in my experience this has always been the case. The 'evidence' if you like, where is the ridiculing?

Okay, first, I'm not trying to "prove" something, just showing you what I see when I see cubing in the news and see non-cubers' reactions to it. I generally see news reports that are not really serious about cubing (especially 'specialty events') like they would be about a top sportsperson or musician, and I think that generally implies that cubing skills shouldn't be taken as seriously. Maybe it's totally different in the Netherlands - I could never know that. Second, you were the first to use the word "ridicule", and I don't think that word is appropriate at all, because nobody is being blatantly made fun of. The media will show someone who has a skill, and then it is up to the audience to interpret it how they like.

Mistakes: mistakes can also be very funny even if you care about it, I remember numerous hilarious moments of me and others making mistakes at serious events.

I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule. But you don't think it's funnier to make a mistake when competing in something you find silly, than to make a mistake when competing in the event you've been practicing your ass off at for the last few months?

I do not have the copy of the WCA-database, but I would claim that at least 30% of the competition in 2010 had more than 10 events. And if not, the "event" could simply only contain 7 events and be called something differently.

Ah, but if you wanted to do the decathlon, you'd have to do those 10 events, not just any 10. So it would end up pretty constraining for organizers, and I don't think most competitions could manage it.

 

[Holger]

Ah, but if you wanted to do the decathlon, you'd have to do those 10 events, not just any 10. So it would end up pretty constraining for organizers, and I don't think most competitions could manage it.

Again, this is not really the issue. If 10 is a bad number, then let the discipline contain 5,6 or maybe 7 events and call it "Hutelihut".

 

[TMOY]

Ah, but if you wanted to do the decathlon, you'd have to do those 10 events, not just any 10. So it would end up pretty constraining for organizers, and I don't think most competitions could manage it.

Depends on where you live. In Europe, most competitions are 2-day long and host a lot of events. And if you consider the top 10 most popular events (according to the stats page: 3^3, 2^3, 4^3, OH, Magic, 5^3, Pyraminx, 3BLD, Megaminx and Square-1), all 10 of them are there anyway in general.

 

[Erik]

QQ: whatever dude, this is going nowhere. You say 'making fun of' then I'm saying 'ridicule' which according to my knowledge is the same. If you already start picking on these kind of small things the discussion is pointless. Things are not different in the Netherlands either, it seems to me you are fishing for stuff here. My media appearances with feet are not limited to the Netherlands anyway.
About the laughing: whatever, people laughing is good. I don't give a crap about the reason. I'd like to have fun at competitions.

 

[qqwref]

Again, this is not really the issue. If 10 is a bad number, then let the discipline contain 5,6 or maybe 7 events and call it "Hutelihut".

You misunderstand me, the number 10 is irrelevant. My point is that if you decide a new statistic based on participating in a set group of events is important enough to be given real regional records, then all the good cubers will insist that each competition has those events. And this would be even more constraining for organizers, because they generally want to do the events that people will enjoy the most. (What is "Hutelihut"?)

Depends on where you live. In Europe, most competitions are 2-day long and host a lot of events. And if you consider the top 10 most popular events (according to the stats page: 3^3, 2^3, 4^3, OH, Magic, 5^3, Pyraminx, 3BLD, Megaminx and Square-1), all 10 of them are there anyway in general.

Not everyone lives in Europe, though. In America we generally have a lot of people at each competition, so depending on the venue and location it can be very difficult to hold a lot of events. In other places where the organizers don't have much experience, or in places that hold "specialty competitions", it might be even harder to hold all the events for the however-many-athlon. I don't think I like the idea of adding a new event if we expect it will be much easier to compete in it in Europe than in other places.

 

[hr.mohr]

(What is "Hutelihut"?)

An arbitrary name.

It originates from a Danish sportscaster that used it in '92 when Denmark won the European Championship in soccer. It's not a real word but he used it just like yahoo or yeehaw.