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Older cubers discussions

ep2

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Aug 20, 2019
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7
I don't know if it's an age thing, but I've spent the last few days trying to learn a new alg, and once I get it, I forget another one that I knew well before I started. This has seriously happened about 6 times now, I'm swapping algs in and out of my head.

Any ideas?
 

Mike Hughey

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I don't know if it's an age thing, but I've spent the last few days trying to learn a new alg, and once I get it, I forget another one that I knew well before I started. This has seriously happened about 6 times now, I'm swapping algs in and out of my head.

Any ideas?
I've regularly had this problem. It especially happens if there are some sort of similarities between the algorithm that I've newly learned and the one that I've forgotten.

From playing piano, I know similar things can happen when learning similar but different passages of a piece. It's especially common when learning a sonata-form sonata, having memorized the first part of the movement, and then learning a key-changed nearly identical part later in the piece. Suddenly you can't play the first part. Seems like the only solution to this I've found is to then really carefully relearn that first part, paying attention to the differences and also practicing the second part. By paying close attention, you can start to know the distinctions between the two intellectually - not just through muscle memory - and then you can eventually overcome the problem.

I guess I've had success with some algorithms that way. But the thing I don't do that I probably should do is to keep a list of algorithms in my "repertoire", so I can easily go back and relearn one when I suddenly forget it (often after having known it for years and used it thousands of times). I did finally make a list of my OLLs a few years ago, and that has helped me a bit. But I need to do more of it.
 
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Old Tom

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Joined
Oct 16, 2014
Messages
186
Location
Virginia
WCA
2018DOYL02
I don't know if it's an age thing, but I've spent the last few days trying to learn a new alg, and once I get it, I forget another one that I knew well before I started. This has seriously happened about 6 times now, I'm swapping algs in and out of my head.

Any ideas?
Since I’m 81, I guess I can talk about this. Learning new algs, remembering thrm, and not forgetting old ones in the process is tough for me. But I am doing it, sort of.

For me it takes drill, drill and more drill. Then repeat. I frequently go through my complete alg set, one after the other, and mix up the order of that also.

Folks talk about muscle memory, and that’s a big part of it. But there is, perhaps unfortunately, just a biit of my brain involved also, when I am doing an alg.

My worst problem is, or was, remembering the direction of rotation. Is it an R, or an R’? I found a rather effective solution for this: I’ve prepared flash cards for each alg, with the sequence broken into groups of four or sometime three, and with clockwise moves written in blue, counter-clockwise in red, double moves (R2) in black.

I can glance at those cards during practice and instantly see the direction, and fairly soon the “color pattern” sticks in my mind, and I’m vaguely aware of it as I execute, later on, without th3 cards. During drill, it takes just the briefest glance at the cards to bring the alg back. It’s been a really effective learning crutch for me.

Similar but separate issue: memory traces for blind: I do the edge trace, fine. Then I do the corners, oops: lost the edges, gone! I’m working on this, but not as good as I was two years ago. Lots of talk about short, medium and long term memory, yeah, but it’s tough!
 

AbsoRuud

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Since I’m 81, I guess I can talk about this. Learning new algs, remembering thrm, and not forgetting old ones in the process is tough for me. But I am doing it, sort of.

For me it takes drill, drill and more drill. Then repeat. I frequently go through my complete alg set, one after the other, and mix up the order of that also.

Folks talk about muscle memory, and that’s a big part of it. But there is, perhaps unfortunately, just a biit of my brain involved also, when I am doing an alg.

My worst problem is, or was, remembering the direction of rotation. Is it an R, or an R’? I found a rather effective solution for this: I’ve prepared flash cards for each alg, with the sequence broken into groups of four or sometime three, and with clockwise moves written in blue, counter-clockwise in red, double moves (R2) in black.

I can glance at those cards during practice and instantly see the direction, and fairly soon the “color pattern” sticks in my mind, and I’m vaguely aware of it as I execute, later on, without th3 cards. During drill, it takes just the briefest glance at the cards to bring the alg back. It’s been a really effective learning crutch for me.

Similar but separate issue: memory traces for blind: I do the edge trace, fine. Then I do the corners, oops: lost the edges, gone! I’m working on this, but not as good as I was two years ago. Lots of talk about short, medium and long term memory, yeah, but it’s tough!
Sounds like you are working hard, Tom. That's pretty amazing. Keep up the good work!
 

mark49152

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My worst problem is, or was, remembering the direction of rotation. Is it an R, or an R’? I found a rather effective solution for this: I’ve prepared flash cards for each alg, with the sequence broken into groups of four or sometime three, and with clockwise moves written in blue, counter-clockwise in red, double moves (R2) in black.
Good stuff Tom. That reminds me of what Badmephisto did. I learned many of my algs from his site when starting out. He colour-coded common groups of moves - for example, R U R' U' would be green. So many algs are composed of these groups, and seeing them highlighted made it easier to remember algs based on fewer but bigger chunks of information.
 

ep2

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
7
I've regularly had this problem. It especially happens if there are some sort of similarities between the algorithm that I've newly learned and the one that I've forgotten.

From playing piano, I know similar things can happen when learning similar but different passages of a piece. It's especially common when learning a sonata-form sonata, having memorized the first part of the movement, and then learning a key-changed nearly identical part later in the piece. Suddenly you can't play the first part. Seems like the only solution to this I've found is to then really carefully relearn that first part, paying attention to the differences and also practicing the second part. By paying close attention, you can start to know the distinctions between the two intellectually - not just through muscle memory - and then you can eventually overcome the problem.

I guess I've had success with some algorithms that way. But the thing I don't do that I probably should do is to keep a list of algorithms in my "repertoire", so I can easily go back and relearn one when I suddenly forget it (often after having known it for years and used it thousands of times). I did finally make a list of my OLLs a few years ago, and that has helped me a bit. But I need to do more of it.
Thanks, good to hear it's not just me. This helps a lot. I've been spamming since I wrote the post and pretty sure I have them now. I think I just need to learn them at a slower rate than most and keep regoing through them all.
 

ep2

Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2019
Messages
7
Since I’m 81, I guess I can talk about this. Learning new algs, remembering thrm, and not forgetting old ones in the process is tough for me. But I am doing it, sort of.

For me it takes drill, drill and more drill. Then repeat. I frequently go through my complete alg set, one after the other, and mix up the order of that also.

Folks talk about muscle memory, and that’s a big part of it. But there is, perhaps unfortunately, just a biit of my brain involved also, when I am doing an alg.

My worst problem is, or was, remembering the direction of rotation. Is it an R, or an R’? I found a rather effective solution for this: I’ve prepared flash cards for each alg, with the sequence broken into groups of four or sometime three, and with clockwise moves written in blue, counter-clockwise in red, double moves (R2) in black.

I can glance at those cards during practice and instantly see the direction, and fairly soon the “color pattern” sticks in my mind, and I’m vaguely aware of it as I execute, later on, without th3 cards. During drill, it takes just the briefest glance at the cards to bring the alg back. It’s been a really effective learning crutch for me.

Similar but separate issue: memory traces for blind: I do the edge trace, fine. Then I do the corners, oops: lost the edges, gone! I’m working on this, but not as good as I was two years ago. Lots of talk about short, medium and long term memory, yeah, but it’s tough!
Thanks. Drilling definitely helps. Flash cards sounds like a great idea.

What you say about blind really rings through as I'm making some attempts on that now. I'm actually finding remembering the letter pairs really tough, but I'll get there eventually...
 

One Wheel

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Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
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Location
Wisconsin
WCA
2016BAIR04
I’m on a bit of a 4BLD kick the last couple of weeks. I don’t expect I want to try learning much new before my competition with either 5BLD or MBLD (stupid organizer didn’t make time for 4BLD or for both big Blind and MBLD. I’ll have to talk to him about that.) but once that’s done what would you suggest working on and what are good resources? I’m intrigued by the idea of 3-style or theoretically 5-style big cube centers, but I’m not sure where to start. U2 centers seem like the most moves per piece solved of anything I’m doing now except maybe OP corners, but there aren’t as many corners so it doesn’t seem like there’s as much to gain.
 

openseas

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Oct 11, 2015
Messages
409
WCA
2015PARK24
I’m on a bit of a 4BLD kick the last couple of weeks. I don’t expect I want to try learning much new before my competition with either 5BLD or MBLD (stupid organizer didn’t make time for 4BLD or for both big Blind and MBLD. I’ll have to talk to him about that.) but once that’s done what would you suggest working on and what are good resources? I’m intrigued by the idea of 3-style or theoretically 5-style big cube centers, but I’m not sure where to start. U2 centers seem like the most moves per piece solved of anything I’m doing now except maybe OP corners, but there aren’t as many corners so it doesn’t seem like there’s as much to gain.
Big cube center is the best way to learn 3 style - also the easiest.
Once you learn just couple of them, you'll be able to use it for the most of centers. It's not that different from U2 but faster and easier.

Daniel's tutorial is quite good for that.

 

Lid

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Jul 8, 2008
Messages
901
Location
Sweden
WCA
2008LIDS01
Ha! First PB since 2018 ...
Square-1 average of 12: 14.674 (3 parities) (old PB 15.199)
15.119, (11.333), 13.264, 15.037, 13.608, (20.204[p]), 14.414, 16.187, 16.236[p], 12.038, 17.607[p], 13.233
Average of 12: 14.674
1. 15.119 (-3, -1) / (3, 0) / (-3, 0) / (-5, -2) / (-3, -3) / (-3, 0) / (0, -1) / (-3, 0) / (3, 0) / (-4, -2) / (-2, 0) / (6, 0) / (0, -3)
2. (11.333) (0, 5) / (-2, 4) / (0, -3) / (-3, 0) / (-3, 0) / (-1, -1) / (-5, 0) / (3, 0) / (6, 0) / (0, -2) / (0, -1) / (-4, -2) / (0, -1)
3. 13.264 (4, 0) / (6, 0) / (-3, 0) / (0, -3) / (0, -3) / (0, -4) / (-3, 0) / (-1, -3) / (6, -5) / (5, -4) / (3, 0) / (4, -4) / (-2, 0) /
4. 15.037 (1, -3) / (0, -3) / (2, -4) / (-2, -5) / (0, -3) / (-3, 0) / (5, 0) / (-3, 0) / (-3, -1) / (0, -5) / (5, 0) / (0, -4) / (4, 0)
5. 13.608 (0, -1) / (1, -5) / (-4, -4) / (3, 0) / (-5, -2) / (0, -4) / (-3, 0) / (0, -3) / (-1, 0) / (-4, -2) / (-2, -4) / (6, -2)
6. (20.204[p]) (3, 5) / (-3, 0) / (6, -3) / (-3, 0) / (-3, 0) / (0, -5) / (-3, 0) / (-2, 0) / (0, -1) / (4, -5) / (-3, 0) / (2, 0) / (-4, 0) / (4, 0)
7. 14.414 (0, 2) / (6, -3) / (6, -3) / (4, -5) / (3, 0) / (5, 0) / (6, -3) / (0, -3) / (2, -3) / (1, 0) / (-4, 0) /
8. 16.187 (-2, 0) / (5, 2) / (-3, 0) / (-3, -3) / (-5, -2) / (6, -4) / (0, -3) / (-1, 0) / (-2, -4) / (-1, 0) / (6, -4) / (-4, -5)
9. 16.236[p] (0, 2) / (-3, 3) / (3, 0) / (1, -2) / (-3, -3) / (0, -3) / (2, 0) / (3, 0) / (-5, -4) / (3, -2) / (0, -3) / (6, -2)
10. 12.038 (0, -4) / (6, 0) / (-5, -2) / (2, -1) / (-3, 0) / (3, -3) / (1, 0) / (-3, -3) / (-3, 0) / (0, -2) / (-4, 0) / (-4, -2)
11. 17.607[p] (1, 3) / (0, -3) / (-4, -4) / (6, -3) / (-2, -2) / (-1, 0) / (0, -3) / (6, -1) / (-2, 0) / (4, 0) / (2, 0)
12. 13.233 (0, 2) / (-2, -2) / (3, 0) / (3, 0) / (0, -3) / (-4, -1) / (3, -5) / (-3, 0) / (3, -3) / (0, -3) / (-2, -4) / (6, -2)
I should really start to learn CSP ... but too lazy:)
 

inkoativ

Member
Joined
May 17, 2019
Messages
9
Location
Berlin, Germany
Dear "senior" Cubers,

I wrote a short data science inspired blog post about participating in my first WCA competition as 40+ year old: http://staff.math.su.se/hoehle/blog/2020/01/22/wcascrape.html
In particular I was interested in ranking my result within the results of first competition (senior) cubers. Maybe the post is of interest for others in the cubing sub-community of this thread...

/inkoativ
 

openseas

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
409
WCA
2015PARK24
Last weekend comp (Sac Cubing IX 2020) results:

3BLD: DNF (~1:10.xx), 57.73, DNF (39.xx). 1st, had trouble recalling corner memos, ended up with incorrect comm. 2 weeks ago, I made the same mistake for UFL-DBL case, executed with UFL-DFL comm. This time, I did exactly opposite. 2nd attempt, I also had last audio pair recall issues but managed to get over it. This was my first official success in 2020. 3rd attempt, rushed but ended up with incorrect corner recall.

4BLD: 1st: 7:29.52. Tracing took a little bit longer than usual, almost missed last wing cycle (just two wing swap), I started execution around mid 3-minute-ish. And, there were couple of execution mistakes (did wrong comm) - corrected both, so, wasn't sure whether it was going to be a solve or not, but well, was ok. 2nd attempt was almost 9 min DNF, incorrectly recalling the last wing pair. (before this, had a quite a bit of long pause for the last wing cycle recall). 3rd, since mo3 chances were gone, skipped (DNS)

5BLD: 1st: 21:21. Tracing was not bad considering I didn't do a single 5BLD practice other than last 2 competitions, memo was about 9 min-ish. Also executed couple of wrong T-center comms, corrected them. 5BLD center (both X and T) comms are almost intuitive, on the fly comm, so needed extra time to figure them out. It's about time to start more or less regular 5BLD practice at home. After the 1st success, mentally exhausted, skipped the rest.

Overall, avoided disastrous all DNF comp with 50% success rate, and at least 1 success from all BLD events. I tried to do at least 1 4BLD solve practice per day, roughly averaging mid 6 min. So, 7:30-ish success was a little bit disappointing but at least a PR. 3BLD was more nervous after 10 official DNFs. I ended up wining both 3BLD and 5BLD, and placed 3rd for 4BLD. I think it is my first time getting podiums from all BLD events at the same time.
 
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One Wheel

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
2,596
Location
Wisconsin
WCA
2016BAIR04
Big Cheese report:

Speedsolving: nailed it!

Blind solving: dangit!

Mediocre 3x3 and Square-1, but my real goal was just to add a Square-1 average and I got that. 1:23.12/1:10.43 Square-1 average/single, 26.22/22.06 3x3

Lucky last layers on Megaminx, so 2:52.43/2:22.62

Official PB means and singles in 5, 6, and 7, 3rd and 4th ever sub-2 5x5 solves.

1:10.xx Feet single, “official” PB, maybe overall. E: I aso got a 1:26.80 Feet average, which beat my Official PB average of 1:26.88.

3 DNFs in 3BLD, 0/3 MBLD. The MBLD cubes I solved the corners on one, the edges on another, and forgot where I was when executing the third.

I’m strongly inclined to keep organizing this competition every year and not bother trying to even go to other competitions. Apparently the WCAT was on the fence about allowing this competition though, and may be hard to convince in the future. There really is room in the venue for about 40 competitors, plus the usual amount of spectators, but they want competitions with 3x3 to have a competitor limit of at least 50.
 
Last edited:

JohnnyReggae

Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2015
Messages
456
Location
Cape Town, South Africa
WCA
2015BOSW01
I’m strongly inclined to keep organizing this competition every year and not bother trying to even go to other competitions. Apparently the WCAT was on the fence about allowing this competition though, and may be hard to convince in the future. There really is room in the venue for about 40 competitors, plus the usual amount of spectators, but they want competitions with 3x3 to have a competitor limit of at least 50.
Try organising a competition without 3x3 ... I organised a competition last year where we specifically didn't want to have 3x3 and only the more fringe events that are not normally hosted in South Africa. I had to jump through quite a few hoops just to get the green light for the competition. It was quite frustrating. So now when I organise a competition I need to include 3x3 otherwise the WCAT has an issue with it :(
 

One Wheel

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
2,596
Location
Wisconsin
WCA
2016BAIR04
Try organising a competition without 3x3 ... I organised a competition last year where we specifically didn't want to have 3x3 and only the more fringe events that are not normally hosted in South Africa. I had to jump through quite a few hoops just to get the green light for the competition. It was quite frustrating. So now when I organise a competition I need to include 3x3 otherwise the WCAT has an issue with it :(
My first competition I organized didn't have 3x3, and the only problem with that was that out of a competitor limit of 50 I think 17 people ended up showing up. I would be perfectly happy to skip 3x3, but for some strange reason it seems that other people like it.

I can understand if WCAT wants to ensure that within a geographic area 3x3 is available at least maybe once a year for people to compete in, and maybe the current rule about overlapping events in nearby competitions is OK. Beyond that as long as the basic quality standards are met then not approving or threatening to not approve a competition is just a power trip and the WCAT needs to come off it. If a local organizer has everything else lined up it's not like the WCAT is going to offer to come in and hold a better competition.
 

openseas

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
409
WCA
2015PARK24
Exported all csTimer 3BLD records to a spreadsheet, just for fun.

My goal of 2019 was becoming sub-1, I'm kinda border line but can still say, yes, I achieved my goal around Nov-ish.
Since I started averaging 90s-ish toward the end of 2018, I made ~30s improvement over the course of 1 year which is awfully slow. I didn't spend much time on actual drilling - that's the reason, I guess. I completed all corner comms 2018 Dec but became comfortable around March. Recorded official 50s in May, official 40s in Nov.

This year's goal is 40 global - a little bit of stretch but not impossible. I haven't pushed my memo almost a year, averaging about 23s - need to do that under 20s comfortably. Edge comms drilling is still ~20-30%. I'm using complete 3 style but majority of them are still quite bad (lots of B, regrip, orientation changes, ...). Going to many comps have both sides of coins, more chances to record PR vs less time for practice (you don't want to learn new stuff right before the comp.) Will see how it goes this year.
1581264906580.png
 
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One Wheel

Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2016
Messages
2,596
Location
Wisconsin
WCA
2016BAIR04
It would make a horribly boring video if I had recorded it, but I'm really happy with this 6x6 average I got today:

3:48.46 Ao12, entirely sub-4:00

1. 3:47.90 @2020-02-20 12:03:46
2. 3:50.15 @2020-02-20 14:02:19
3. 3:32.19 @2020-02-20 14:07:50
4. (3:31.60) @2020-02-20 14:12:42
5. 3:55.54 @2020-02-20 14:18:13
6. 3:55.66 @2020-02-20 14:23:25
7. 3:38.48 @2020-02-20 14:29:28
8. 3:55.97 @2020-02-20 14:34:27
9. 3:47.55 @2020-02-20 14:39:42
10. 3:56.56 @2020-02-20 14:44:45
11. (3:58.80) @2020-02-20 14:50:08
12. 3:44.59 @2020-02-20 14:55:40
 

jdh3000

Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
Messages
35
Since I’m 81, I guess I can talk about this. Learning new algs, remembering thrm, and not forgetting old ones in the process is tough for me. But I am doing it, sort of.

For me it takes drill, drill and more drill. Then repeat. I frequently go through my complete alg set, one after the other, and mix up the order of that also.

Folks talk about muscle memory, and that’s a big part of it. But there is, perhaps unfortunately, just a biit of my brain involved also, when I am doing an alg.

My worst problem is, or was, remembering the direction of rotation. Is it an R, or an R’? I found a rather effective solution for this: I’ve prepared flash cards for each alg, with the sequence broken into groups of four or sometime three, and with clockwise moves written in blue, counter-clockwise in red, double moves (R2) in black.

I can glance at those cards during practice and instantly see the direction, and fairly soon the “color pattern” sticks in my mind, and I’m vaguely aware of it as I execute, later on, without th3 cards. During drill, it takes just the briefest glance at the cards to bring the alg back. It’s been a really effective learning crutch for me.

Similar but separate issue: memory traces for blind: I do the edge trace, fine. Then I do the corners, oops: lost the edges, gone! I’m working on this, but not as good as I was two years ago. Lots of talk about short, medium and long term memory, yeah, but it’s tough!
You have to get it to muscle memory, or they are tough to remember.

I too have trouble memorizing new algs. I know full OLL/PLL but learn new algs for F2L, I have to practice them in segments. When finally commited to muscle memory, I only have to see it then it happens. Sometimes if I stop to think about it, I draw a blank.
 
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