#### LeaveTheMassage

##### Member
My judge asked if he could film my solve today. Managed to get a pb while thinking 'I hope I don't mess up' the entire solve.

I'm sorry about the quality. I can post the scramble in a couple of days time if anyone wants a shot at reconstructing (good luck).

Hello Adam! I just watched this video but didn't quite catch how you were solving L8E, do you do freeslice for the first 4?

Goshi

##### Member
I do 4 freeslice, then throw 2 edges in the back with R' U R L U' L', then solve the last 4 as normal.

#### TheBrutux168

##### Member

Can somebody please critique my solves? Thanks!

#### Chree

##### Member

Can somebody please critique my solves? Thanks!
Not bad! Pretty good flow and pretty neat finger tricks. Here's what I can spot.

- When you finished the white center, say it is on the F face... the 4th Center you always chose was the U face. That forced you to either do a y2 or a 4Uw2 before starting Hoya Cross. For instance at 4:00, with red on right, you went for blue. If you instead did an x rotation and went for green, you can finish with one more x rotation. That would cut out those extra moves and bad rotations and save a second or so. Personally, I find it helps with lookahead into my first cross pieces, too.
- Your actual Hoya Cross was fast and efficient. Took advantage for easy cases and had decent flow. Seemed fine.
- All I can add for F4C and the Cross is maybe a bit of "slow down a look ahead". But that may just come with practice.
- @2:48, L2C case: [U2] r U r' U' r U r'. You should also learn the mirror: r U' r' U r U' r'.
- You do a LOT of rotations during L8E, and should cut down on those. Hold the cube and look around.
- The way you finish the lefty flipping alg, doing the F with the back of your left index finger is cool... but on more than a couple occasions that caused you to catch and lose momentum. Maybe try left thumb or right index finger to do that F. Although when it worked, it was badass, and I was jealous that I can't do it.

Last edited:

#### TheBrutux168

##### Member
Not bad! Pretty good flow and pretty neat finger tricks. Here's what I can spot.

- When you finished the white center, say it is on the F face... the 4th Center you always chose was the U face. That forced you to either do a y2 or a 4Uw2 before starting Hoya Cross. For instance at 4:00, with red on right, you went for blue. If you instead did an x rotation and went for green, you can finish with one more x rotation. That would cut out those extra moves and bad rotations and save a second or so. Personally, I find it helps with lookahead into my first cross pieces, too.
- Your actual Hoya Cross was fast and efficient. Took advantage for easy cases and had decent flow. Seemed fine.
- All I can add for F4C and the Cross is maybe a bit of "slow down a look ahead". But that may just come with practice.
- @2:48, L2C case: [U2] r U r' U' r U r'. You should also learn the mirror: r U' r' U r U' r'.
- You do a LOT of rotations during L8E, and should cut down on those. Hold the cube and look around.
- The way you finish the lefty flipping alg, doing the F with the back of your left index finger is cool... but on more than a couple occasions that caused you to catch and lose momentum. Maybe try left thumb or right index finger to do that F. Although when it worked, it was badass, and I was jealous that I can't do it.
Thanks you very much for the help! I'll make sure to take use of all your tips.

#### genericcuber666

##### Member
i just did an average with hoya and it was 20 seconds faster than i get with yau so im probably gonna switch. are there any algs i can learn for it is there anything i could do to make it better for a zz solver and how good is it for 5x5

#### Chree

##### Member
i just did an average with hoya and it was 20 seconds faster than i get with yau so im probably gonna switch. are there any algs i can learn for it is there anything i could do to make it better for a zz solver and how good is it for 5x5
Check out all of the videos on the first post of this thread.

As for making it more ZZ friendly... not that I'm aware of. Like Yau, the goal is to pre-build the Cross before L8E... but:
- The orientation of the rest of the edges will be random.
- There's no opportunity to inspect for orientation until you're already half way done with the solve... so that would just waste time.
- And almost anything you would normally do to solve orientation would likely disturb the cross just spent so much time solving.

I wouldn't mind it if someone tried incorporating ZZ into Yau or Hoya... but given the obstacles ZZ faces with these methods, I don't see it happening.

#### Berkmann18

##### Member
i just did an average with hoya and it was 20 seconds faster than i get with yau so im probably gonna switch. are there any algs i can learn for it is there anything i could do to make it better for a zz solver and how good is it for 5x5
If you're planning on using ZZ on big cubes, the reduction method to go with would be Z4 and Z5 for respectively 4x4 and 5x5.

#### Chree

##### Member
If you're planning on using ZZ on big cubes, the reduction method to go with would be Z4 and Z5 for respectively 4x4 and 5x5.
I've never heard of those before. Are there any resources on it? And any compatibility with Hoya or Yau?

#### genericcuber666

##### Member
is there a list for hoya edge algs because the link on the first post dosent show any picture for me?

#### Chree

##### Member
is there a list for hoya edge algs because the link on the first post dosent show any picture for me?
You're right, the images don't seem to be hosted anymore. You'd have to do each alg in reverse to see what the case is.

That was the only site that I was aware of. The videos that are linked from that post still work, tho. So you may want to take some time to watch them. Or crawl through this thread for algs.

Here's also a link to my playlist of Tips and Tricks videos:

#### Berkmann18

##### Member
I've never heard of those before. Are there any resources on it? And any compatibility with Hoya or Yau?
Z4: https://www.speedsolving.com/wiki/index.php/User:MaeLSTRoM/Z4
For Z5, I don't know any good resources for it, so I would just adapt the Z4 method on 5x5.

As for the compatibility with Hoya/Yau, from my experience, it's possible and neither too time consuming and algorithmically long.

#### Rubix Cubix

##### Member
What method do you guys use for edges of 4x4? I've been using either 3-2-3 or putting 2 solved edges in the back and then 2-pairing the rest but not sure which is the best way to do it.

#### Berkmann18

##### Member
What method do you guys use for edges of 4x4? I've been using either 3-2-3 or putting 2 solved edges in the back and then 2-pairing the rest but not sure which is the best way to do it.
I use 3-2-3. I find myself often doing 6-2 (like I used to do back then) or variants like 2-3-3 (e.g: when I get the case Dw (R U R') (F R' F') Dw') after a Dw slice) or 2-4-2 or (e.g: when I have two pairs that can be assembled in one slice and two flips such as: Dw (R U R') (F R' F') (L U L') (B L' B') Dw').

#### AlphaSheep

##### Member
I somehow missed this whole discussion on Hoya-ZZ. A few months ago I started using a variant of Hoya adapted for a ZZ finish. I know I'm not the first to try it though, and I was actually inspired by a post by @Berkmann18. I'm starting to enjoy it enough that for the first time since I started cubing, I actually feel I want to get faster at 4x4. I've done some example solves, and I'm looking for some critique. Mostly I'm looking for advice on better ways of making the first 4 centres and last 5 edges.

Here's a summary of the variant:
1. First 4 centres (F, B, D and then either L or R colour) and then hold the cube a with a y or y' away from your usual ZZ orientation so that the unsolved centres are on the front and top.
2. Solve line edges on DR and DL, and pair and orient any three other edges in BR, BL and DB. The BR and BL edges need to be positioned bearing in mind a y rotation will happen later. I deal with this by pairing the edges misoriented on DF, and then do (D R D') or (D L' D') to position them.
3. Last 2 centres - even easier than normal Hoya since DF doesn't need to be moved out the way.
4. If a lucky edge is already paired, place it oriented on DF. Otherwise pair 2 edges and place one of them oriented on DF.
5. Pair the last 5 or 6 edges, with 2-3 or 2-2-2 pairing. Edge orientation can be influenced about half the time.
6. Something like a Petrus kind of EO for the last few edges (max 6). This is often all <R U L>, but may require at most one F move. Orientation parity can be fixed here using a slightly shorter alg than the standard one.
7. y' rotation followed by ZZ finish.
I'm also curious, what's a typical move count for standard Hoya?

Scramble: L Fw' L R Uw' D' Rw' B' Uw F2 R2 D2 F2 L2 B R' U F B2 Rw2 F' Fw2 Uw' F2 B2 R2 D' F2 D2 R B2 Rw' B R F2 R2 F Rw' U' Uw2

// Solve 4 centres:
y' l'L d D' l'L d F2 d' // 2 opp Centres - F and B colours
r U F' D' l' F' l' // D centre
x r F r' F' l' U2 l x // 4th centre

// Pair + orient 5 edges
R' // First line edge
L D r U' r' D' // Second line edge
L' U L r U2 r' D2// 3rd edge
l' U2 l U' l' U l D R' D' // 4th edge
U' L U L' // 5th edge

// Last 2 centres
r U r' U' l' U2 l

// Edge pairing
R U R' F2 // Oriented edge on DF
U R U' R' u' R U R' F R' F' R u // 2 Edges
L' U2 L R U' R' u' R U' R' u // 2 Edges
R U' R' u' R U R' F R' F' R u // 2 Edges

// Petrus style EO
U F R U R'
U D2 r U2 r' U2 r' D2 r D2 x' r' U2 r U2 r' x // EO Parity

// Rotate+ZZ Finish
y U R2 U2 R' L U2 L2 U R' U R U L // Left block
R' U2 R U R' U' R' U R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R' // Right block
U' 3r' U' R U L U' R' U x // COLL
m2 U m2 U m' U2 2L2 U2 2R2 u2 2R2 u2 U2 m' U // EPLL+Parity
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: Fw2 U F2 D2 L2 F' Uw2 R U' F D F' B' L' Rw2 B L' Rw U2 Uw2 R2 U Rw U2 Fw R' Uw Rw' F2 Fw' Rw2 Fw R2 F' L' Rw2 U D F' U'

// Solve 4 centres
F2 d x' U2 r' y2 R u U r' F2 r z'// 2 opp Centres - F and B colours
F x' U l' U r U2 r2 x' r U' l U2 l2 x' // 3rd and 4th centres

// Pair + orient 5 edges
U' r U2 r' U r U' r' D R' // 1st Edge
F2 L U l' U2 l // Line edge
D L' D l' U2 l // Other line edge
D' U r U' r' D' L D // 4th edge
l' U2 l U' l' U l D2 // 5th edge

// Last 2 centres
l' U l U' r U2 r'

// Edge pairing
u' R U R' u U' F2 // Pair and orient DF
L' U L u' U R U' R' u // Pair 2 edges
R U' R' u' U R U' R' u // Pair 3 edges

// Petrus style EO
L' U' L R U R'

// Rotate then ZZ finish
y' L' U2 L R U' R' L U' R' U2 L' U2 L2 U2 L // Left BLock
R U2 R' U2 R U R' U2 R2 U' R' U R U' R' // Right Block
U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U R' U R // ZBLL
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: D B' D' F' Fw2 B' D' L F Rw' B' Rw' B R B L' R D R' B' Uw2 L' R F' B' Uw2 R U2 D2 F2 L' Rw' R2 B Uw2 D' R U2 D L2

// Solve 4 centres
r' U2 r' U l' U2 l2 // First 2 centres
U' F l' U2 l // 3rd centre
z l' U' l U' D l2 U2 l2 x // 4th centre

// Pair 5 edges
U r U2 r' U r U' r' D R' // 1st edge
U' l' U2 l U' l' U l D' L // 2nd edge
F' U F2 r U' r' D2 // 1st line edge
U F r U' r' D // 2nd line edge
F2 l' U2 l D2 // 5th edge

// Last 2 ccentres
U' l' U' l F l' U2 l

// Finish edge pairing
U R U' R' u' R U' R' u R' F R // Pair 2 and orient DF
U R U' R' u' F' U F u // Pair 2 edges
F' U' F u' F' U F u // Pair 3 edges

// EO
F U F' R U2 R'

// Rotate and ZZ finish
y U R' U2 R U R U' R U2 R' U2 R U R' // Right Block
U2 L' U L U2 L2 U L' U' L U L' // Left Block
U' R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R // COLL
2R2 U2 2R2 u2 2R2 u2 U2 // PLL Parity
R2 U' R' U' R U R U R U' R // EPLL
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: R' F' L' Fw D' Rw D' L R' F2 Fw Uw2 F Fw2 U2 Rw2 Uw2 F' Uw2 L D L' U D2 F Fw2 B2 Uw Rw2 R' U2 Uw2 R F Fw B Uw2 F' Rw B'

// Solve 4 centres
x' U r U F l2 U' l' U' r' U2 r x' y U F' l' U2 l // 2 opp centres
z B' r2 U' r // 3rd Centre
U' F' r2 U r F2 r x // 4th Centre

// Pair 5 edges
B' U' B // 1st Edge
U2 r U2 r' U r U' r' // 2nd Edge
D' L F' L' D2 // Line Edge
U2 F2 U2 r U' r' D // Other Line Edge
R U' R' l' U2 l D R' D' // 5th Edge

// Last 2 centres
U2 r U2 r'

// Finish Edge pairing
R U R' u' R U R' u F // 2 Edges + Oriented in DF
F' U F u' F' U2 F u // 2 Edges
R U R' u' R U2 R' u // 3 Edges

// EO
R U R' F
r U2 r' U2 r' D2 r D2 x' r' U2 r U2 r' x D2 // EO Parity

// Rotate and ZZ Finish
y' R U2 R' U' R' U2 R' L' U2 L2 U2 L' U2 R' // Right Block
U L U2 L' U L' U L' U L U2 L' U L // Left Block
U2 3r U R' U' 3r' F R F' // COLL
U 2R2 U2 2R2 u2 2R2 u2 U // EPLL Parity
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: U' B' U R Rw Uw2 F2 Fw' Rw2 Fw2 B' Uw F' L2 Fw Rw' Uw2 B' R2 B2 D2 U2 Uw B2 Uw B' U2 Uw2 F R2 Rw' L' Uw' Fw2 F' R2 Uw2 F' Uw F

// Solve 4 Centres
x D U' r U' F' D r' x' R u2 3d l' U2 r // 2 opp centres
y D' r2 U' l' x // 3rd centre
F' r U' r2 D' r D l2 U2 l2 x // 4th centre

// Pair 5 edges
l' U2 l U' l' U l D R' // Pair 1st edge
F U F' r U' r' D' L // Pair 2nd edge
U r U2 r' U r U' r' // Pair 3rd edge
D2 F2 D U r U' r' // Line edge
D2 R U R' F2 r U' r' D // Other line edge

// Last 2 centres
U' l' U' l

// Finish edge pairing
F' // Oriented edge on DF
u F U2 F' u' // 2 edges
F U2 F' u' F R' F' R u // 2 edges
R U2 R' u' R U R' F R' F' R u // 2 edges

// EO
R U' R' F
r U2 r' U2 r' D2 r D2 x' r' U2 r U2 r' x D2 // EO Parity

// Rotate and ZZ finish
y' U' L' U L U2 R' U2 R U2 L // Left Block
U2 R2 U2 R' U' R' U' R' U R U' R' U' R // Right Block
R' U' R U' R' U2 R // OCLL
U2 R U2 R' U' R' F' R U2 R U2 R' F R U' R' U' // PLL
alg.cubing.net

##### Member
I somehow missed this whole discussion on Hoya-ZZ. A few months ago I started using a variant of Hoya adapted for a ZZ finish. I know I'm not the first to try it though, and I was actually inspired by a post by @Berkmann18. I'm starting to enjoy it enough that for the first time since I started cubing, I actually feel I want to get faster at 4x4. I've done some example solves, and I'm looking for some critique. Mostly I'm looking for advice on better ways of making the first 4 centres and last 5 edges.

Here's a summary of the variant:
1. First 4 centres (F, B, D and then either L or R colour) and then hold the cube a with a y or y' away from your usual ZZ orientation so that the unsolved centres are on the front and top.
2. Solve line edges on DR and DL, and pair and orient any three other edges in BR, BL and DB. The BR and BL edges need to be positioned bearing in mind a y rotation will happen later. I deal with this by pairing the edges misoriented on DF, and then do (D R D') or (D L' D') to position them.
3. Last 2 centres - even easier than normal Hoya since DF doesn't need to be moved out the way.
4. If a lucky edge is already paired, place it oriented on DF. Otherwise pair 2 edges and place one of them oriented on DF.
5. Pair the last 5 or 6 edges, with 2-3 or 2-2-2 pairing. Edge orientation can be influenced about half the time.
6. Something like a Petrus kind of EO for the last few edges (max 6). This is often all <R U L>, but may require at most one F move. Orientation parity can be fixed here using a slightly shorter alg than the standard one.
7. y' rotation followed by ZZ finish.
I'm also curious, what's a typical move count for standard Hoya?

Scramble: L Fw' L R Uw' D' Rw' B' Uw F2 R2 D2 F2 L2 B R' U F B2 Rw2 F' Fw2 Uw' F2 B2 R2 D' F2 D2 R B2 Rw' B R F2 R2 F Rw' U' Uw2

// Solve 4 centres:
y' l'L d D' l'L d F2 d' // 2 opp Centres - F and B colours
r U F' D' l' F' l' // D centre
x r F r' F' l' U2 l x // 4th centre

// Pair + orient 5 edges
R' // First line edge
L D r U' r' D' // Second line edge
L' U L r U2 r' D2// 3rd edge
l' U2 l U' l' U l D R' D' // 4th edge
U' L U L' // 5th edge

// Last 2 centres
r U r' U' l' U2 l

// Edge pairing
R U R' F2 // Oriented edge on DF
U R U' R' u' R U R' F R' F' R u // 2 Edges
L' U2 L R U' R' u' R U' R' u // 2 Edges
R U' R' u' R U R' F R' F' R u // 2 Edges

// Petrus style EO
U F R U R'
U D2 r U2 r' U2 r' D2 r D2 x' r' U2 r U2 r' x // EO Parity

// Rotate+ZZ Finish
y U R2 U2 R' L U2 L2 U R' U R U L // Left block
R' U2 R U R' U' R' U R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R' // Right block
U' 3r' U' R U L U' R' U x // COLL
m2 U m2 U m' U2 2L2 U2 2R2 u2 2R2 u2 U2 m' U // EPLL+Parity
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: Fw2 U F2 D2 L2 F' Uw2 R U' F D F' B' L' Rw2 B L' Rw U2 Uw2 R2 U Rw U2 Fw R' Uw Rw' F2 Fw' Rw2 Fw R2 F' L' Rw2 U D F' U'

// Solve 4 centres
F2 d x' U2 r' y2 R u U r' F2 r z'// 2 opp Centres - F and B colours
F x' U l' U r U2 r2 x' r U' l U2 l2 x' // 3rd and 4th centres

// Pair + orient 5 edges
U' r U2 r' U r U' r' D R' // 1st Edge
F2 L U l' U2 l // Line edge
D L' D l' U2 l // Other line edge
D' U r U' r' D' L D // 4th edge
l' U2 l U' l' U l D2 // 5th edge

// Last 2 centres
l' U l U' r U2 r'

// Edge pairing
u' R U R' u U' F2 // Pair and orient DF
L' U L u' U R U' R' u // Pair 2 edges
R U' R' u' U R U' R' u // Pair 3 edges

// Petrus style EO
L' U' L R U R'

// Rotate then ZZ finish
y' L' U2 L R U' R' L U' R' U2 L' U2 L2 U2 L // Left BLock
R U2 R' U2 R U R' U2 R2 U' R' U R U' R' // Right Block
U2 R U2 R' U' R U' R' U2 R' U2 R U R' U R // ZBLL
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: D B' D' F' Fw2 B' D' L F Rw' B' Rw' B R B L' R D R' B' Uw2 L' R F' B' Uw2 R U2 D2 F2 L' Rw' R2 B Uw2 D' R U2 D L2

// Solve 4 centres
r' U2 r' U l' U2 l2 // First 2 centres
U' F l' U2 l // 3rd centre
z l' U' l U' D l2 U2 l2 x // 4th centre

// Pair 5 edges
U r U2 r' U r U' r' D R' // 1st edge
U' l' U2 l U' l' U l D' L // 2nd edge
F' U F2 r U' r' D2 // 1st line edge
U F r U' r' D // 2nd line edge
F2 l' U2 l D2 // 5th edge

// Last 2 ccentres
U' l' U' l F l' U2 l

// Finish edge pairing
U R U' R' u' R U' R' u R' F R // Pair 2 and orient DF
U R U' R' u' F' U F u // Pair 2 edges
F' U' F u' F' U F u // Pair 3 edges

// EO
F U F' R U2 R'

// Rotate and ZZ finish
y U R' U2 R U R U' R U2 R' U2 R U R' // Right Block
U2 L' U L U2 L2 U L' U' L U L' // Left Block
U' R U2 R2 U' R2 U' R2 U2 R // COLL
2R2 U2 2R2 u2 2R2 u2 U2 // PLL Parity
R2 U' R' U' R U R U R U' R // EPLL
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: R' F' L' Fw D' Rw D' L R' F2 Fw Uw2 F Fw2 U2 Rw2 Uw2 F' Uw2 L D L' U D2 F Fw2 B2 Uw Rw2 R' U2 Uw2 R F Fw B Uw2 F' Rw B'

// Solve 4 centres
x' U r U F l2 U' l' U' r' U2 r x' y U F' l' U2 l // 2 opp centres
z B' r2 U' r // 3rd Centre
U' F' r2 U r F2 r x // 4th Centre

// Pair 5 edges
B' U' B // 1st Edge
U2 r U2 r' U r U' r' // 2nd Edge
D' L F' L' D2 // Line Edge
U2 F2 U2 r U' r' D // Other Line Edge
R U' R' l' U2 l D R' D' // 5th Edge

// Last 2 centres
U2 r U2 r'

// Finish Edge pairing
R U R' u' R U R' u F // 2 Edges + Oriented in DF
F' U F u' F' U2 F u // 2 Edges
R U R' u' R U2 R' u // 3 Edges

// EO
R U R' F
r U2 r' U2 r' D2 r D2 x' r' U2 r U2 r' x D2 // EO Parity

// Rotate and ZZ Finish
y' R U2 R' U' R' U2 R' L' U2 L2 U2 L' U2 R' // Right Block
U L U2 L' U L' U L' U L U2 L' U L // Left Block
U2 3r U R' U' 3r' F R F' // COLL
U 2R2 U2 2R2 u2 2R2 u2 U // EPLL Parity
alg.cubing.net

Scramble: U' B' U R Rw Uw2 F2 Fw' Rw2 Fw2 B' Uw F' L2 Fw Rw' Uw2 B' R2 B2 D2 U2 Uw B2 Uw B' U2 Uw2 F R2 Rw' L' Uw' Fw2 F' R2 Uw2 F' Uw F

// Solve 4 Centres
x D U' r U' F' D r' x' R u2 3d l' U2 r // 2 opp centres
y D' r2 U' l' x // 3rd centre
F' r U' r2 D' r D l2 U2 l2 x // 4th centre

// Pair 5 edges
l' U2 l U' l' U l D R' // Pair 1st edge
F U F' r U' r' D' L // Pair 2nd edge
U r U2 r' U r U' r' // Pair 3rd edge
D2 F2 D U r U' r' // Line edge
D2 R U R' F2 r U' r' D // Other line edge

// Last 2 centres
U' l' U' l

// Finish edge pairing
F' // Oriented edge on DF
u F U2 F' u' // 2 edges
F U2 F' u' F R' F' R u // 2 edges
R U2 R' u' R U R' F R' F' R u // 2 edges

// EO
R U' R' F
r U2 r' U2 r' D2 r D2 x' r' U2 r U2 r' x D2 // EO Parity

// Rotate and ZZ finish
y' U' L' U L U2 R' U2 R U2 L // Left Block
U2 R2 U2 R' U' R' U' R' U R U' R' U' R // Right Block
R' U' R U' R' U2 R // OCLL
U2 R U2 R' U' R' F' R U2 R U2 R' F R U' R' U' // PLL
alg.cubing.net
According to some table i can't remember where i saw it (though it might be earlier in this thread) about 135 or so compared to Yau's 120

#### Dom

##### Member
I switched from redux to Hoya and shaved about 10 secs off my time. But I think I'm taking too long to do my centers. Does anyone have any tips?

#### Rubix Cubix

##### Member
I switched from redux to Hoya and shaved about 10 secs off my time. But I think I'm taking too long to do my centers. Does anyone have any tips?
Kevin Hayes has a good video where he gives tips and tricks for solving the centers on 5x5 -

#### Dom

##### Member
Kevin Hayes has a good video where he gives tips and tricks for solving the centers on 5x5 -
Thanks. I'm mostly looking for 4x4 centers tips. (This was originally posted in a 4x4 thread)