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[Help Thread] Hoya Discussion

AlphaSheep

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What are your thoughts on co-centre building (building two centres at the same time) and (partial) edge pair preservation during L2Ce ?

I'm asking this because, I find myself doing that on 4x4-6x6 (I use Hoya on all three with a particular combination of 3x3 methods) and sometimes it does pay off in terms of move count (especially when the preserved edges are fully paired) but sometimes (especially when I try to preserve 2+ edge pairs) it feels like a waste of time and effort.

Apologies if it was already discussed on this thread.
I build 5 edges before L2C, so the chances of having an extra premade pair to deal with are quite high, and my back slots are always full.

If there's one extra pair, I always try preserve it. If I can, I try to put the pair in FR or FL then use inner slice moves where necessary to finish the centres. Other times, if the pair is in U and I can put the pair in UR so that Rw could hide the pair, then I do an F move to position centres so that I can pair them while hiding the pair.

If there are multiple extra pairs to deal with, I will almost always pick the easiest to preserve and forget about the others. The exception is when L2C can be done with <Rw, U2>, in which case I put the pairs on the sides and preserve them.
 

Chree

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I build 5 edges before L2C, so the chances of having an extra premade pair to deal with are quite high, and my back slots are always full.

If there's one extra pair, I always try preserve it. If I can, I try to put the pair in FR or FL then use inner slice moves where necessary to finish the centres. Other times, if the pair is in U and I can put the pair in UR so that Rw could hide the pair, then I do an F move to position centres so that I can pair them while hiding the pair.

If there are multiple extra pairs to deal with, I will almost always pick the easiest to preserve and forget about the others. The exception is when L2C can be done with <Rw, U2>, in which case I put the pairs on the sides and preserve them.

Ooooo... that's really clever. So if the pair is on FU or BU, but the L2C alg is Rw U2 Rw', would you instead do like: R U R' U' Rw U2 Rw'?
 

Chree

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Joey totally ninja'd me on this. I'm working on a video like this... maybe this'll light a fire under me to actually finish it.

Cool video! The 5x5 stuff was pretty illuminating :)

I do, however, disagree with the final assessment on efficiency... using this method for every single case does not save moves in the long run. The basic cases shown are really the only good ones, movecount-wise... and even there, if you count them, the only ones saved are the F setups (still worth it). But with more complicated cases the movecounts get worse. Also, recognition and execution are so much quicker when things are simpler (2 algs vs 1 intuitive concept)... though something like that probably starts to even out with practice.
 
Last edited:

TDM

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Sorry for bumping an old thread, but there's something which I've seen a few people disagreeing about recently and I thought we should aim to standardise things a bit more.

Currently for 5x5, there don't seem to be standard names for the basic method and any variants. Some people are calling the standard Hoya applied to 5x5 "Hoya5", and others are just calling it "Hoya". There's also a variant of it invented by me and Odder which people call either "Hoya5" or "Hodder". They may be other variants which I don't know about.

Here's my proposal:

1) Name the standard method applied to 5x5 "Hoya". Given that it's the same method as on 4x4, I feel it should have the same name, especially since this is true for Yau and Reduction (neither of which get a -5 suffix when applied to 5x5). This will also make naming new variants more simple, as the core method will have the most basic name, and we can then add to the end of the name.

2) Name the variant proposed by me and Odder "Hoya5". It share similarities to Yau5, so the naming would again be more consistent with other methods. Although Odder did create it, given that he wasn't the only one, I don't think the name "Hodder" should be used. Sorry Oscar!
(to clarify, the steps here are:
  1. First 4 centres
  2. Three cross edges in the back
  3. Back two F2L slots (finishes a 4x4x5 with nothing else solved)
  4. Last two centres+finish cross
  5. Edge pairing (e.g. with AvG)
  6. 3x3 stage with solved XX-cross
The difference between this and Hoya is step 3. It doesn't have to be this restricted - you could pair up any two edges and put them into the back with an R'/L move - but this is just the general idea)


I know this is nothing overly important but it could cause a bit less arguing if we settled on something.
 

Ordway Persyn

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Sorry for bumping an old thread, but there's something which I've seen a few people disagreeing about recently and I thought we should aim to standardise things a bit more.

Currently for 5x5, there don't seem to be standard names for the basic method and any variants. Some people are calling the standard Hoya applied to 5x5 "Hoya5", and others are just calling it "Hoya". There's also a variant of it invented by me and Odder which people call either "Hoya5" or "Hodder". They may be other variants which I don't know about.

Here's my proposal:

1) Name the standard method applied to 5x5 "Hoya". Given that it's the same method as on 4x4, I feel it should have the same name, especially since this is true for Yau and Reduction (neither of which get a -5 suffix when applied to 5x5). This will also make naming new variants more simple, as the core method will have the most basic name, and we can then add to the end of the name.

2) Name the variant proposed by me and Odder "Hoya5". It share similarities to Yau5, so the naming would again be more consistent with other methods. Although Odder did create it, given that he wasn't the only one, I don't think the name "Hodder" should be used. Sorry Oscar!
(to clarify, the steps here are:
  1. First 4 centres
  2. Three cross edges in the back
  3. Back two F2L slots (finishes a 4x4x5 with nothing else solved)
  4. Last two centres+finish cross
  5. Edge pairing (e.g. with AvG)
  6. 3x3 stage with solved XX-cross
The difference between this and Hoya is step 3. It doesn't have to be this restricted - you could pair up any two edges and put them into the back with an R'/L move - but this is just the general idea)


I know this is nothing overly important but it could cause a bit less arguing if we settled on something.

Just a little correction, on normal Hoya steps 2 and 4 are also different (you make all four cross edges in step 2)

I personally feel as if Hoya 5 is not a good name for Hodder, normal* Yau on 5x5 and up is usually called Yau 5, so it makes sense that normal* Hoya is called Hoya 5 (normal may not be quite the right word, as Hoya and Yau work slightly different on 5x5+ due to difference in L8E pairing, this is not the case for Redux). Hodder has more fundamental differences compared to normal Hoya, and should be given a name more indicative of it's difference.
 

Ordway Persyn

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Yup, you're right about the first point.


This is not true - Yau5 is a different method to Yau. But even if it was, calling the method "Hodder" would be like calling CFOP "Fridrich".
I thought that the difference between Yau and Yau 5 were inherent to solving 5x5+, I don't know much about Yau5 so that probably was the biggest flaw in my reasoning.
 

Mastercuber04

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hey guys, i use hoya method to solve 4x4
I am stuck at the moment in progress and i would like some tips to help break the sub 40 barrier
Are there any hoya users who can give some helpful tips?
 

Elf

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Bump.

I was wondering what the best times are that have been reached using Hoya. I could not find anything about this in the forums sadly, but maybe someone here knows something. :)
I currently average around 36 to 37 on 4x4 (single PB 27.95) and around 1:12 on 5x5 (PB 58.xx) and actually consider myself quite high at the hoya ranking.
 

Leery

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Hey! What would be goal splits for 1:00 and 0:45 seconds on Hoya solves? My current averages are as follows;

First Four Centers: 13.79
Cross Edges: 19.23
Edge Pairing: 14.61
3x3 Stage: 20.26
 
U

Underwatercuber

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Hey! What would be goal splits for 1:00 and 0:45 seconds on Hoya solves? My current averages are as follows;

First Four Centers: 13.79
Cross Edges: 19.23
Edge Pairing: 14.61
3x3 Stage: 20.26
I can do some solves later today to figure out my splits, I average around 45
 
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